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  1. #341
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Shiff's perspective might sound good, but that's because he is presenting an idealized version of capitalism. What he described is the way the system is suppose to work rather than what really happens in practice.

    He wants the state to stay out of corporate affairs. Sounds good on paper, but look what happened. The lack of regulation allowed Wall Street employees to game the system for personal profit. They made reckless decisions which were good for the short term but were fatal to the corporation in the long run. This allowed them to take their bonuses and leave the mess for the taxpayers to sort out. Let them fail? It's not that simple. It would likely have led to the collapse of the global financial system and a depression like the one in the 30's.

    Note that in Canada where the banks were more tightly regulated, none of the major banks needed to be bailed out during the last meltdown.


    Why not do both? Maximize your own position AND work to correct systemic injustices. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    they may not be, but they have to be prioritized. most people trying to do both at the same time fall flat on their face and don't produce anything. if correcting systemic injustices is your passion, make it your top priority; if maximizing your position is your passion, make it your top priority. most people run around in circles staying in the same place.

    it wasn't the lack of regulation, it was BECAUSE of regulation, and the obscene fees entailed that small businesses have been failing while large businesses can absorb the losses, monopolize and pass on the costs to their customers. small business would be doing MUCH better if we had a capitalistic system
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  2. #342
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    It doesn't take more than a myopic viewpoint to run a business. That may be why he has "myopic" viewpoints. He's spent most of his time, working. Of course, if I am talking to others, I am generally going to keep it simple. Anything more than that, and you lose people. I do it all the time, and I don't consider my opinions to be that complicated. Common sense and cutting-to-the-chase are not skills everyone has. Some ENTJ's seem to have them. He's negotiating, and negotiating in business is relatively simple, though far from everyone can do it.


    There's something wrong with all of the ideologies. None of them totally work, 100%, all-the-time, and there's one thing for sure - they won't. People have to work to make them work. It has more to do with the people than the ideology. Using an ideology that works for the task at hand and the mindstate of the people, is important.
    My point was that his ideological outlook is simplistic, not simplified, its a simplistic ideology for simpletons. People for whom "the gummit did it" is the stretch of their thinking.

    Your view of ideology is very different to mine, I dont believe it is pattern to which human nature should be compelled to conform to, it is a good servant sometimes but a very bad master all the time.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    they may not be, but they have to be prioritized. most people trying to do both at the same time fall flat on their face and don't produce anything. if correcting systemic injustices is your passion, make it your top priority; if maximizing your position is your passion, make it your top priority. most people run around in circles staying in the same place.
    The purpose of the protestors is to draw attention to the issues and get people to think about them. There are other ways to support the cause without physically joining the group.

    it wasn't the lack of regulation, it was BECAUSE of regulation, and the obscene fees entailed that small businesses have been failing while large businesses can absorb the losses, monopolize and pass on the costs to their customers. small business would be doing MUCH better if we had a capitalistic system
    I tend to agree that the bureaucracy can be costly for those without deep pockets. But the solution is to have better regulations, not do away with them altogether. The latter would create even worse problems, like the current financial crisis. Also, in a purely capitalistic system, nothing would prevent a large corporation from using predatory tactics to bankrupt the small businesses, and then raise prices.

  4. #344
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The purpose of the protestors is to draw attention to the issues and get people to think about them. There are other ways to support the cause without physically joining the group.


    I tend to agree that the bureaucracy can be costly for those without deep pockets. But the solution is to have better regulations, not do away with them altogether. The latter would create even worse problems, like the current financial crisis. Also, in a purely capitalistic system, nothing would prevent a large corporation from using predatory tactics to bankrupt the small businesses, and then raise prices.
    Yup. And it may not narrow down to one corporation, but if it's just a few big ones they can collude and it might as well be a monopoly.
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  5. #345
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The purpose of the protestors is to draw attention to the issues and get people to think about them. There are other ways to support the cause without physically joining the group.


    I tend to agree that the bureaucracy can be costly for those without deep pockets. But the solution is to have better regulations, not do away with them altogether. The latter would create even worse problems, like the current financial crisis. Also, in a purely capitalistic system, nothing would prevent a large corporation from using predatory tactics to bankrupt the small businesses, and then raise prices.
    yes it would. in a capitalist society, corporations are illegal
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  6. #346
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    yes it would. in a capitalist society, corporations are illegal
    Really? That's interesting how so?

  7. #347
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Did I hit a nerve? I just think that "libertarian" guy says some stupid shit, and since I think he's probably not a stupid guy, that makes me think he's probably a liar. Either that or he's yet another bloviating, Randian ideologue. I also thought that your comment about the financial meltdown of 2008 being orchestrated randomly by the government, and not the banks, was quite wrong. I didn't expect to have to hear yet another ridiculous "get a job, hippie, stop envying what other people have" speech, so I've only quoted the last paragraph of your response.

    There are so many silly things in this post that I don't know where to begin. For starters, read this about the bailout money repayment. Also, I don't know what kind of "unsustainable model" you're talking about. Finally, no one was forced to accept bailout money. I think you need to read in more detail about the bank debacle. They fucked themselves up by being greedy as fuck, and they were allowed to behave in the insane way that they did because years of lobbying and getting their employees into government eroded important regulations, and when shit went sour they were able to leverage their influence in order to basically be saved by nanny government from the disastrous fallout of their stupidity. Goldman Sachs in particular was demanding either that AIG pay up on the collateral owed them (after they found out that AIG had squandered all of it on yet more worthless speculation) or that the government step in and get them their money. They gave the government no choice. Betting on worthless horeshit mortgage-backed securities (basically playing hot-potato with shit they knew was worthless) in order to get quick up-front profits, allowing limitless speculation on commodities (driving prices way up), and pushing their BS subprime mortgages on suckers, among other criminally stupid things, has lead to the present state of things, including the protests, which they deserve. In other words, it would be incredibly naive to lay the blame entirely on the government and not on Wall Street.
    No, you didn't hit a nerve...... I think it's a build-up of too much politics over the past week! It's the most I've paid attention to it, ever......Being So last, I never have gotten to a point where I could devote the time and energy necessary for it at this level. Irl, it's really hard to hit a nerve with me.... I've lived with two sociopaths, and live with an entj..... and believe me, no human being can match "hitting a nerve" like a sociopath can. Everything here is child's-play comparatively. I think overtime, you get used to their way, to the point of knowing that a human-being can not begin to conceive what "hitting a nerve" really is. I do enjoy passionate arguments! It helps me to figure out where I lie on issues.

    Oh, I know that some of them were wrong, but not all, and that's my point. To attack the entirety of Wall Street, including innocents, is wrong, imo, and stupid. I want to tell them to "do your homework and have reasons for what you do." Attacking Wells Fargo or B of A was not the way to go. Neither has been proven to have done anything wrong. Both were poised to buy at the points of the meltdown.

    Yes, some were forced to accept bailout money. It was done in order to protect them.

    Peter Schiff is not libertarian.

    You just seem to concentrate on what "Wall Street" did wrong, I concentrate more on what the Federal Government does wrong. Why? Because the Federal Government has the power to fix it. I'm going straight to the place where the problem can be fixed. I'm not interested in bullshitting around or griefing, but learning of and fixing the problem at hand.

    I think you should research Peter Schiff before you decide he is a liar. He is one of the few who consistently predicted the bubble, and warned of it. He's one of the few who told the fucking truth, and wasn't afraid to tell it. If you know entj's, they do bullshit here-and-there, but I don't consider it to be lies. It's not really lies, just them playing their games. They want you to counter them. Yes, they are one-sided, as in, negotiating and fighting for their sides. That's just how they are, but it doesn't make them liars. It also doesn't mean they don't do and give ALOT to others. His truths may be your lies. So be it, but that doesn't necessarily make him a liar. He's certainly much-less of a liar than most politicians I know, and has proven himself through the years. I don't think he's a saint, but he's certainly miles-above alot of others.

    George Soros and Obama, as Jimmy Carter did, are trying to create class warfare, and it seems it is affecting the public. I think class warfare is useless, and it seems to cause a deviation into fighting-each-other, rather than solving the problems in the federal government. I saw that a new movie just came out seeming to do just that. I think we should all have the proper judging minds to distinguish between bad and good, without devolving into a simple black-and-white struggle. Not everyone who has ever been on Wall Street or wanted to make money breaks the rules, and they are not "evil" lmfao.

    Hell, the truth is, if I would've had the skills at the time, I probably would've indulged in a little gambling myself. I think many people would, who are calling "evil". That's the hypocrisy of the situation.

    At the same time, I don't think that everyone who attended the tent festival in Oakland were hippies or rule-breakers. I think initial judgments are there to protect oneself from harm. I think some were innocent in the fiasco, and that's sad. Many had real reasons to be there, if only they knew what to do about their issues, to make things better and create real change. I think what some of them could start with is to quit smoking pot. lol...... I smoked it myself for 17 years, and it got me absolutely nowhere but down. When your life is devoted to smoking pot, you won't get very far. I know it's hard when one is using pot to self-medicate. I've truly seen and lived on both sides of the coin. It can be a long, hard road from OWS to Tea Party.
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  8. #348
    Senior Member Tiger Owl's Avatar
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    I heard this the other day:

    "The Tea Party says 'We want to keep what we have earned.' The OWS says 'We want to keep what you have earned.'"
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  9. #349
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    I heard this the other day:

    "The Tea Party says 'We want to keep what we have earned.' The OWS says 'We want to keep what you have earned.'"
    Pretty-much the way I see it. Simple as that.

    Some OWS people today are going to turn to Tea Party people, later. Why? Because they are going to have bank accounts to protect.
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  10. #350
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    I heard this the other day:

    "The Tea Party says 'We want to keep what we have earned.' The OWS says 'We want to keep what you have earned.'"
    In German, we use the same word for 'to earn' and 'to deserve'. The translation makes the difference more interesting.

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