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  1. #261
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's an embarrassingly bad argument. Perhaps he should just stick to what he knows and stay out of political discourse.
    I agree, that argument is pretty lame; however, I do agree with bits of the rest of the article.

  2. #262
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    I think it's a little different when you live amongst it, than it is when you are reading about it. I wouldn't go out there, because the park is crawling with insanitary conditions, the unemployed, pot-smokers, the homeless, and hippies. The same reason I wouldn't hang out in that park in the first place, protesters or not. Sure, there are a few used-to-be-small-business-owners out there..... and they are hanging out and smoking dope too. I don't blame any of them for being angry. But I wouldn't go into that park......there's only one park I would venture into in Oakland. The rest of them are meeting places for drug dealers and the homeless.

    At the end of the day, the one small business owner that pops up in the media, was the owner of a barbecue restaurant that closed, and I can understand why. The service was horrible.

    I am not convinced that this whole scenario has attracted many who are of-any-use to the movement. Maybe it will grow.....
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  3. #263
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    do the rioters prefer this kind of environment to civilized society with toilets, sanitation facilities and grocery stores? (what do they do? hunt wild game or grow their own crops? lol) I will never understand the anti business crowd.
    Do you understand that there's more than one way to do business?
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  4. #264
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I agree, that argument is pretty lame; however, I do agree with bits of the rest of the article.
    Like what?

    “Wealth Redistribution Is the Answer!”

    I’ve heard a lot about wealth redistribution over the past few years, and I’m sure you’ve heard it too. Call it whatever you want, but this is how it usually sounds to most Americans: “We are the 99% of Americans who don’t have as much as the 1%, so we’re mad and think the government should take their wealth and property away so that I can have a piece of it. Wealth inequality is a moral breakdown! We should all spread the money around so everyone gets a fair share!”
    Seriously, Dave? What he's written here indicates either that he's ignorant or he's lying; frankly, I don't know which is worse. Apparently he's very good at seeing no evil when wealth redistribution flows upward, as it has done for decades, but suddenly it's "thievery" and bald-faced "envy" when anybody from below suggests that this direction might be wrong. It's never "wealth redistribution" unless it's aimed downward.

    Not to mention, if we take his argument to be literal (and not simply lame rhetorical tactics), nobody is suggesting that we storm the front-gates of some rich guy and take his shit. Nor is anybody suggesting that the government seize some rich guy's property and auction it off cheaply to "the 99%." It may be difficult for a person like Dave to understand, but some folks are concerned about the welfare of the nation as a whole and not simply interested in securing "handouts" for themselves, or enviously eying the pockets of the rich while blaming the world for their personal failures.

    Celebrate the Land of Opportunity

    This is the greatest country on the planet, but even here, you’re not guaranteed wealth, talent, fame, a full head of hair or six-pack abs. Those things are not in the Constitution. You are, however, guaranteed the freedom to make your life what you want it to be. And when you do that, when you build your life around your dreams and passions and hard work, you’re guaranteed the right to keep it. No one has the right to take it away from you.

    So to summarize, I’m not very impressed at the moment. I’m not impressed by your temper fit. I’m not impressed at your lack of goals and focus. I’m not impressed by the fact that the only thing I see about your movement is ignorance, immaturity and envy. Grow up—and get a job.

    Yes, there are jobs out there. There are jobs out there that haven’t even been invented yet. Go create the next Facebook or Weed Eater. Go pick up so much dog poop that you can start your own fertilizer company. And stop complaining that companies are TOO RICH while also complaining that they aren’t RICH ENOUGH to hire you! I’ve seen a lot of you guys. I wouldn’t hire you, either. But if you take all of that energy and excitement and pour it into something new and creative, you’ll get the chance to serve a whole lot of people really well, and over a decade or two, you’ll get to become the very thing you’re now protesting: rich people who actually earned their money.
    On top of having missed the point on an epic scale, this last bit just makes him sound like a snake-oil salesman.


    Edit: If we analogize this entire thing to, say, a math class of 30 students, it would go something like the following:

    Say five of the students bribe and flatter the teacher, and as a result they receive special treatment such as extra lessons, special attention (they monopolize all of the teacher's time during class, for instance, having private conversations and lessons while the rest of the class is given some crappy book problems to solve the whole time), they get to drop two of their lowest grades at the end of the semester, special in-class parties involving only them and the teacher, missing homework forgiveness, and they alone get letters of recommendation from the teacher to join elite school clubs. In return, these kids submit articles to the student newspaper, write to the school board, and tell their parents (who are PTA members) about what a great teacher they have.

    As a result of the extra time and educational resources being used on this select minority of students, the average grades of the rest of the students plummet substantially. Those who had solid As now get Bs and Cs, and those who had Bs and Cs are now on the brink of failing. Of course, this is seen as a problem by the school administrators, so they recommend (completely misunderstanding the problem) that the students with the lowest grades be given some small help on tests to boost their grades. So the teacher begrudgingly adds a free ten point booster to the test grades of the four or five kids that are outright failing.

    Now the unfavored kids getting low As, Bs, and Cs are complaining that the failing kids are taking resources away from them. They blame the failing kids for getting an unearned "handout," and they blame the school administration for intruding to take away what little educational resources they have a hold on. The teacher and the favored kids naturally agree, as this viewpoint coincides with their interests as well (the favored students like monopolizing all special treatment, and the teacher likes being flattered and bribed.)

    The kids who see that the real problem is the inherent unfairness of the way the class is being run (both the corruption of the teacher and the selfishness of the favored students, who don't give a shit that they're benefiting at the expense of the education of the rest of the class), however, are derided in two different ways. If they're not getting perfect grades, they're told, in Dave Ramsey fashion, that they should simply put their heads down, work as hard as they can, and not be concerned with what others have. If they just worked harder and stopped envying the favored kids, they'd do better. If, on the other hand, they've managed, either by sheer willpower, precociousness, or access to outside resources, to maintain perfect grades in spite of the rigged way that grades are distributed, they're told that they're delusional hypocrites. How can they complain about the way the class is run when it's benefited them so well?

    So these kids who are dissatisfied with the class organize themselves into a group and stage a protest. They refuse to do homework or take tests until something is done to reorganize the class along more equitable lines. The teacher responds by making placating but ultimately meaningless gestures and promises. He says, "I'll add a free twenty points to everyone's next test." But the favored kids, fearing that they'll lose their privileged status, do all they can to discredit the protesting kids. They complain to their parents and the school board that these kids are whiny losers who smoke weed and do bad things. They write smear pieces in the school newspaper about particular kids involved in the protest.

    In this scenario, Dave Ramsey is either a favored kid going around spreading lies and moralizing about his superiority to these "whiners" who didn't work as hard as he for grades, or he's a random idiot who bought into these same lies that were spread by the favored kids. Neither is good.
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  5. #265
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Do you understand that there's more than one way to do business?
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    scratch everything I've said on this subject. I researched into it further and I had no idea what the fuck I was talking about it (silly me thinking American public media would report things accurately)
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  6. #266
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Like what?



    Seriously, Dave? What he's written here indicates either that he's ignorant or he's lying; frankly, I don't know which is worse. Apparently he's very good at seeing no evil when wealth redistribution flows upward, as it has done for decades, but suddenly it's "thievery" and bald-faced "envy" when anybody from below suggests that this direction might be wrong. It's never "wealth redistribution" unless it's aimed downward.

    Not to mention, if we take his argument to be literal (and not simply lame rhetorical tactics), nobody is suggesting that we storm the front-gates of some rich guy and take his shit. Nor is anybody suggesting that the government seize some rich guy's property and auction it off cheaply to "the 99%." It may be difficult for a person like Dave to understand, but some folks are concerned about the welfare of the nation as a whole and not simply interested in securing "handouts" for themselves, or enviously eying the pockets of the rich while blaming the world for their personal failures.



    On top of having missed the point on an epic scale, this last bit just makes him sound like a snake-oil salesman.
    I think he has an audience in mind. I'm not sure if he sees the big picture, as I haven't paid much attention to him at all.
    I could see saying these things to certain people. Doesn't mean I don't get the big picture.
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  7. #267
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post

    scratch everything I've said on this subject. I researched into it further and I had no idea what the fuck I was talking about it (silly me thinking American public media would report things accurately)
    Well at least you admitted it and were open to learning something about it, so good on you for recognizing that.


    It's pretty scary how many people can be manipulated by media misinformation and an allegiance to a political party....

  8. #268
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I think he has an audience in mind. I'm not sure if he sees the big picture, as I haven't paid much attention to him at all.
    I could see saying these things to certain people. Doesn't mean I don't get the big picture.
    I don't care what he "sees" or "gets." The only important thing is what he chooses to say and do, and thus far he has only gone out of his way to discredit OWS, employing self-righteous, simplistic, and largely irrelevant argumentation in order to do so.
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  9. #269
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't care what he "sees" or "gets." The only important thing is what he chooses to say and do, and thus far he has only gone out of his way to discredit OWS, employing self-righteous, simplistic, and largely irrelevant argumentation in order to do so.
    So what do you suggest in order to speak to the people? If it were done Orangey's way, how would it be done?
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  10. #270
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    So what do you suggest in order to speak to the people? If it were done Orangey's way, how would it be done?
    In ways that have already been done by others, even some in the mainstream press (though these are few and far between), because it's not very fucking difficult if you have half a brain and aren't already looking to outright discredit.
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