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  1. #161
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The core demands are clear cut and hard to oppose without sounding like an oligarchic douche.
    That's why I'd like to understand who opposes it and why. Although I disagree, I can understand the "oh it'll never work" apathy attitude, but I don't understand who would oppose it or why, other than people who are benefitting from the corruption.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    The point is, they can have whatever they want. Anything the 99% desires should be theirs, because we love democracy. Even with diverse political persuasions, moments like this can create solidarity amongst a majority wherever these people congeal together on a topic. But when the people make demands, it is called class warfare.
    Theoretically, yes. So why isn't it working that way after all?


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I'm glad to see that the movement is beginning to gain traction.
    Me, too!


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If the current crisis and bailout of Wallstreet at the expense of the common people doesn't make people realize how broken the political and financial system is, I don't know what will.
    Seriously. I hope we/ they come up with solutions that actually get implemented.

  2. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    From wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_St





    The core demands are not diverse. Basically they want separation of wealth and state, like separation of church and state.

    The political persuasions of the people protesting and the proposed solutions are diverse, though. That's why it's currently pretty nebulous.
    That is an interesting proposal, I wonder what its substance would be?

    I could only see it being recycled by the political classes as a reason for campaign funding or some other institutional support for politicians and politics.

    The diversity and disparity of opinion is becoming a major obsticle, at the moment when some practical and pragmatic measures have been most needed there's never been so much utopianism or ideological hopes. I know that more mundane things like a consensus on raising taxes and policing fiscal institutions seems dull but anyway.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post

    Theoretically, yes. So why isn't it working that way after all?
    Most sane people reject warfare. This is class warfare, after all. Demanding transparency in campaign funding is class warfare. The notion of the wealthy paying a larger share of taxes than the poor is class warfare. Forming a union is class warfare. Providing health care is class warfare. We are America. We are war.

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I'm glad to see that the movement is beginning to gain traction. If the current crisis and bailout of Wallstreet at the expense of the common people doesn't make people realize how broken the political and financial system is, I don't know what will.
    I dont believe it is gaining traction.

    I would respond to these occupations and protests the same as I would the days and days of rioting in London when pundits tried to politicise those actions, we'll see how many people can be bothered to vote or sustain pressure through the more mundane channels.

    If there has been any lessons learned by how the Cold War ended or responses to upheavels and conflict in human history per se is that if you remove the obvious things for resistance to challenge, oppose and push against, if you appear to be offering no counter-resistance to the original challenge, it will flounder and dissipate, eventually disappearing. The western governments have learned that well.

    The sorts of citizenry which exist in welfare capitalist regimes are capable of political "sprints" but they arent "marathon" runners.

  5. #165
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe it is gaining traction.

    I would respond to these occupations and protests the same as I would the days and days of rioting in London when pundits tried to politicise those actions, we'll see how many people can be bothered to vote or sustain pressure through the more mundane channels.
    I'm not sure there's a comparison there. This is already self-identified as political while it is not yet rioting. It's quite the opposite, is it not?

    Start political first, then turn into a riot, and you have a good recipe. Now a protester just needs to get shot.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe it is gaining traction.
    The original protestors got absolutely no attention from the mainstream media at the start. Now, I see quite a lot of coverage. Similar protests are happening in other cities and countries.

    I would respond to these occupations and protests the same as I would the days and days of rioting in London when pundits tried to politicise those actions, we'll see how many people can be bothered to vote or sustain pressure through the more mundane channels.
    Chanting in the streets alone will not accomplish much. But it's a good first step. They drew attention to major inequalities in the American system that has up to now been untouchable. If the sentiments of dissatisfaction become widespread, politicians will have no choice but to take notice, even if self interest is their only motivation.

  7. #167
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Not to speak for Jaguar, but I think there is a pretty huge difference between segregation and the diverse things these OWS people are harping about; 'people power' movements (not that I think the OWS qualifies as a 'people power' movement, but that seems to be the conceit of the participants) tend to have long-term adverse effects on the body politic, and are therefore only really justified for outragous government abuses, particularly where democratic institutions do not function.
    I'll concede the the fact this is a movement that is ill-focused, and thank you for actually answering what I ask instead of avoiding it and interpreting my analogy as me calling you some kind of child-beating madman. I think, at the heart of this movement, there are government abuses that need to be addressed that democratic institutions have failed to answer (the well-moneyed and corporate influence having too strong an influence on our government or their ability to get away with what would be considered criminal activity in virtually any other group in the nation, or indeed that the people have placed so much of their business and money in a few small groups that we can't let them die because we'll face economic catastrophe without them, so we basically put a gun to our own head in terms of having to allow them to make up the rules), but it needs a stronger, more centralized message (and perhaps mouthpiece) without doubt.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #168
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) Probably because our economy is shittier than before.
    So neither that happening nor the response to it happening is an indication of the failure of the government to do their job?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    2.) The Democratic electorate is currently less ideological than the Republican vote, because self-described conservatives outnumber self-described liberals by two-to-one;
    I'm too familiar with Frank Luntz and George Lakoff to think that really means anything. Those labels actually don't really tell me much about what policies people want.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    the Democratic representatives, however, are more ideological, as illustrated by the decline of the Democratic Leadership Council and the rise of the Progressive Caucus on the one hand, and the loss of the Blue Dogs on the other.
    I'll begin by saying that in terms of voting or interaction with other politicians, the Democrats simply do not seem to be as ideological as the Republicans. Now, to get to your specific point, I don't believe it's accurate. The major thrust of the Democratic strategy in 2006 and 2008 was to accept unusually conservative candidates and to put the energy behind them instead of the stalwarts. That was specifically their plan. It seemed to work in the short term, but many of those representatives were booted 2 or 4 years later in 2010, so perhaps it was not such a hot idea. But that itself leads to an important point. The biggest threat to blue dogs have not been anyone in the Democratic party, it has been Republicans. Republicans rarely knock out staunch liberal reps (Alan Grayson would be a counter example). They do knock out moderate Democrats. The Republican party is perhaps working on a self-fulfilling prophecy by knocking all the moderate elements out of the Democratic party.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #169
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So neither that happening nor the response to it happening is an indication of the failure of the government to do their job?
    Nah, the economy is magical and has nothing to do with policy...except when those bastards try and stick their grubby communist hands into the coffers of business people who worked hard for their money, just to give it back to those goddamn useless welfare queens!

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm too familiar with Frank Luntz and George Lakoff to think that really means anything. Those labels actually don't really tell me much about what policies people want.

    I'll begin by saying that in terms of voting or interaction with other politicians, the Democrats simply do not seem to be as ideological as the Republicans.
    Indeed.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #170
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    I love the rapid rewiring going on in every right wingers brains right now:

    "Its Obamas fault that people dont have jobs. Where are the jobs?"

    "Why dont these hippies get jobs. Its their own fault that theyre poor/unemployed."
    +10% Crit Chance

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