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  1. #141
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That would be a typo.

    I'm not sure that the craftsman allusion is correct, that sounds like masonry, I thought it was closer to Aquinas' cosmology of the divine mover or first mover, anyway that's part of it but its not the greater part which is a discussion among Socrates and guests about Atlantis with reference to a previous talk about the ideal constitution or republic, they discuss Atlantis as fact, desptie the fact that most contemporary research doesnt simply suggest that this could not possibly have been established as such but that Plato even invented the idea himself.

    I deliberately mentioned Plato for the exact reason you mention, its a popular thing for people to say about Plato but there's no real way of knowing is there? Does it invalidate his material altogether? Well, going by the standard you set for the bible definitely so, in fact, as I said, there's not a great deal of the literary and cultural corner stones of western civilisation (or I'd suspect any other civilisation) which could comply with that standard.
    Im really not sure what you are getting at here. We can have a skepticism about our sources of History and their bias without rejecting them altogether. And we can reject sillier aspects of it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Im sure there were lots of things in the Bible that actually happened, Im sure that there was in fact a King David and King Solomon, although how much their stories have been embellished is hard to tell.

    Take the story of King Arthur. There probably was a King Arthur, and he probably did defeat the Saxons. But did he really pull Excalibur from the stone under the guidance of the Wizard Merlin? Probably not.

    And what exactly do you mean by "invalidating" his work? Invalidating them as sources of historical fact? Probably. Invalidating them as important works in western philosophy? No.
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  2. #142
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    I never said it was all symbolic. Parts of it are.
    So what parts are symbolic? What parts are supported by this archeological evidence?
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  3. #143
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Im really not sure what you are getting at here. We can have a skepticism about our sources of History and their bias without rejecting them altogether. And we can reject sillier aspects of it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Im sure there were lots of things in the Bible that actually happened, Im sure that there was in fact a King David and King Solomon, although how much their stories have been embellished is hard to tell.

    Take the story of King Arthur. There probably was a King Arthur, and he probably did defeat the Saxons. But did he really pull Excalibur from the stone under the guidance of the Wizard Merlin? Probably not.
    Does it matter? If they've been embellished? There's plenty in the bible which reads like the exaggerations of group of Guinness swilling story tellers but it doesnt falseify what the message essentially is, when it says that Moses or Elijah were in their hundreds or that when they went places it took them three days to cross the city there I dont think that's truth, its blarney, although there's still truth in those texts.

    And what exactly do you mean by "invalidating" his work? Invalidating them as sources of historical fact? Probably. Invalidating them as important works in western philosophy? No.
    Well that sounds like progress, although I'd suspect that you're using philosophy to mean something other than truth. Anyway. I think its disappointing that religion is anathema in the modern world. Religion made the modern world. It could make it better.

  4. #144
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Does it matter? If they've been embellished? There's plenty in the bible which reads like the exaggerations of group of Guinness swilling story tellers but it doesnt falseify what the message essentially is, when it says that Moses or Elijah were in their hundreds or that when they went places it took them three days to cross the city there I dont think that's truth, its blarney, although there's still truth in those texts.



    Well that sounds like progress, although I'd suspect that you're using philosophy to mean something other than truth. Anyway. I think its disappointing that religion is anathema in the modern world. Religion made the modern world. It could make it better.
    I still have no idea what the hell you are arguing here. You appear to agree with me completely and are only attacking me because of some perceived hostility towards religion.
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  5. #145
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    If you consider illegal protest bad, as you noted when referring to OWS, you must assume the sit-ins to end segregation were bad UNLESS you provide a reason why the two are distinct.
    Not to speak for Jaguar, but I think there is a pretty huge difference between segregation and the diverse things these OWS people are harping about; 'people power' movements (not that I think the OWS qualifies as a 'people power' movement, but that seems to be the conceit of the participants) tend to have long-term adverse effects on the body politic, and are therefore only really justified for outragous government abuses, particularly where democratic institutions do not function.

  6. #146
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    What does the 99% want?
    A shitload of diverse and mutually exclusive things...just like the other 1%.

  7. #147
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    particularly where democratic institutions do not function.
    Our democratic institutions are not functioning.
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  8. #148
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Our democratic institutions are not functioning.
    I disagree; we are seeing checks and balances in action, and the product of two separate political blowouts operating on behalf of the people who voted them into office to implement specific agendas. The 'gridlock' that so many people complain about is a consequence of the unusually high degree of political accountability that our political institutions promote.

  9. #149
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I disagree; we are seeing checks and balances in action, and the product of two separate political blowouts operating on behalf of the people who voted them into office to implement specific agendas.
    I'm not seeing any of that going on. And it's because of that we see such a universal dislike of our current authorities. This is why we have both the tea party and occupy Wall Street. This is why congress itself has record low approval ratings, and both Democrats and Republicans are almost equally disparaged. The great majority of people, participating in protests are not, have voiced that they don't like the people in office.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The 'gridlock' that so many people complain about is a consequence of the unusually high degree of political accountability that our political institutions promote.
    This is a relatively new development. This is some incredibly high gridlock we have going on lately. Was the system not being accountable before?
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  10. #150
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Whether the protestors have something worthwhile or not to say definitely doesn't negate the fact that they're annoying as hell.

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