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  1. #101
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I guess if that's all it is, then I wish them luck. I doubt things like this change unless the "corrupt" are outright assholes though. America, whether unconsciously or not, plays it differently and behind closed doors. There's no denying corruption, but it isn't enough to cause the kind of outrage that can change a society. Basically, we need even worse corruption! Like King John and the Sheriff of Nottingham. Then you get the Magna Carta. But you never get the Magna Carta because of some pissants on Wall Street. Hell, you're lucky if even a King John can provoke true outrage.
    As far as people around the world go, I'd say Americans have a pretty low tolerance for corruption and injustice. Seeing the goverment hand out trillion dollars to shore up the banks while telling the unemployed to suck it up and use bootstraps was enough to get a lot of people out on the street. And the longer they are there, the higher the chances are of some over-eager cop killing somebody, which will be enough of a catalyst to cause a massive outrage to change society.

    Just imagine this: during a heated arrest, a cop shoots a subdued protestor, and somebody catches that on camera. Only instead of a black male with a criminal record who was coming back from a party, like the one who was shot by BART officers a year ago, the victim is a pretty young white woman with a college degree who was protesting government corruption.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #102
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    You're assuming I got my views from Fox or Republican ranting. I thought they were hippies cause they look like hippies in pictures, playing drums and other instruments.
    1. You can't get an accurate impression of what it's like and who is there from pictures.

    2. The majority of pictures available come from mainstream news sources. It's kind of their job to capture the most ludicrous of the crowd, which they've done an excellent job of so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    I didn't view it negatively from the beginning. Initially,I thought it was a good idea. I was glad people finally stood up against corporate corruption. But then I realized a couple thousand people around the world marching in the streets isn't going to change things. It won't make the CEO's rethink cashing in that million dollar paycheck. They should be marching in DC, where Obama wants millionaires to pay the same taxes as the middle class. Where OUR justice system provides the rules by which the companies abide.



    Now you are assuming I'm illogical. I have reasons to think these protests won't work. I stated some above.
    You're saying that the protests won't work because it won't change the minds of the people in charge. Isn't that still circular? It won't work because it won't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    I'm not saying it's a fact things won't change, I'm just saying things probably won't. They might though.
    Well, we really have no method of determining those kinds of probabilities, so there's no rational way to view their future efficacy right now except to note that similar large scale protests and forms of civil disobedience have been effective in the past.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #103
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    1. You can't get an accurate impression of what it's like and who is there from pictures.

    2. The majority of pictures available come from mainstream news sources. It's kind of their job to capture the most ludicrous of the crowd, which they've done an excellent job of so far.



    You're saying that the protests won't work because it won't change the minds of the people in charge. Isn't that still circular? It won't work because it won't work.



    Well, we really have no method of determining those kinds of probabilities, so there's no rational way to view their future efficacy right now except to note that similar large scale protests and forms of civil disobedience have been effective in the past.
    It's all I've got right now, I'm not going there to see what the people are like.

    I'm assuming yours is it will work because it will work?

    You're ignoring the many large scale protests that have failed throughout human history. It seems you are a natural optimist.

  4. #104
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    It's all I've got right now, I'm not going there to see what the people are like.

    I'm assuming yours is it will work because it will work?

    You're ignoring the many large scale protests that have failed throughout human history. It seems you are a natural optimist.
    No, but you could probably guess that there are more than just hippies there. Even browsing YouTube for a moment will give you more perspective.

    I'm making no claim as to the probability that it will or won't work. I'm just saying that since I agree with the movement, it is most helpful to take actions to make it work (which requires that I avoid succumbing to pessimism or apathy.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #105
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    I'm sure the hippies and the people that just like to fight the government outnumber the others.

    Have you seen the news? Your movement has caused destruction in Rome with 70 injured.

    You make no claim? You haven't yet. But it seems you think it WILL work, seeing as you took the time to say that similar movements have succeeded in the past. Let us continue this tomorrow, it is late here and I didn't sleep too well last night. Goodnight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, but you could probably guess that there are more than just hippies there. Even browsing YouTube for a moment will give you more perspective.

    I'm making no claim as to the probability that it will or won't work. I'm just saying that since I agree with the movement, it is most helpful to take actions to make it work (which requires that I avoid succumbing to pessimism or apathy.)

  6. #106
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    I'm sure the hippies and the people that just like to fight the government outnumber the others.
    Well, if you're so sure, it must be true!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    Have you seen the news? Your movement has caused destruction in Rome with 70 injured.
    Yes, I've read about it. Apparently a group of militant "anarchists" wearing hoods decided to infiltrate the peaceful protest and set shit on fire. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that it was "my movement" that caused it to happen. That same group had reportedly been involved in other acts of violent protest long before the current demonstrations began.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    You make no claim? You haven't yet. But it seems you think it WILL work, seeing as you took the time to say that similar movements have succeeded in the past. Let us continue this tomorrow, it is late here and I didn't sleep too well last night. Goodnight.
    I said it's only useful to believe that it will work until irrevocably proven otherwise, or else there'd be no reason to support the movement at all.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I read no more than that sentence. Why? You think we're having a conversation. We're not.
    Nor do I have an interest in having one.
    Fine. You have no answers to my inquiries, then I'll continue to assume you either are either ideologically consistent and dislike people like Rosa Parks or the Civil Rights protests, or don't have any good answers to what I asked (again, why these non-violent but sometimes illegal protests are "bad" and those weren't, a question I even initially framed giving you the benefit of assuming you oppose segregation and felt the actions taken to end it were a good thing). And I expect you not to complain like I'm some big meanie on the playground calling you a child-beater or Jeffrey Dahmer just for wanting clarification on something you actually stated like you did before, or making inferences based on your own statements. "I don't have to explain myself" is a pretty paltry excuse.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #108
    Senior Member Jack427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well, if you're so sure, it must be true!



    Yes, I've read about it. Apparently a group of militant "anarchists" wearing hoods decided to infiltrate the peaceful protest and set shit on fire. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that it was "my movement" that caused it to happen. That same group had reportedly been involved in other acts of violent protest long before the current demonstrations began.



    I said it's only useful to believe that it will work until irrevocably proven otherwise, or else there'd be no reason to support the movement at all.
    You have no evidence of your statement either.

    So you're telling me some people set crap on fire because they could? Faith in humanity minus 5 points.

    Plenty of people have supported things they thought wouldn't work, they just had hope. Hope, and believing, are different things.

  9. #109
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I'm not on either one of your sides, but it's probably not a fair comparison just because of geography alone.

    And yes, some people set crap on fire just because. People do this at soccer games. Let alone other causes. I wouldn't say acknowledging it is lack of faith in humanity. It just is.

  10. #110
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    You have no evidence of your statement either.
    The majority of the people protesting are young. That's about all anyone could say with any certainty about "most" of them. Beyond that, it's been reported that there is a fairly wide variety of different types of people present (in terms of race, age, political ideology, SES, etc.,) We do know that they are not mostly "hippies."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    So you're telling me some people set crap on fire because they could? Faith in humanity minus 5 points.
    What? I said they were a notoriously violent anarchist group that planned on infiltrating the previously peaceful protests in order to wreak havoc. They probably believe that higher levels of civil disobedience are more effective. I don't know, because I don't advocate wanton violence. The protests are supposed to be peaceful.

    What was your point in bringing this up, anyway? Did you have one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack427 View Post
    Plenty of people have supported things they thought wouldn't work, they just had hope. Hope, and believing, are different things.
    No, plenty of people have supported things that they had strong doubts about. You can't absolutely think that something won't work and support it anyway. As for your quibble about a hope/belief distinction, let's just say that hope involves an element of belief that the possibility of a certain outcome does exist.

    Again, what is your point?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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