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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Dude, that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. You really have no idea what you are talking about here. Markets exist. Economics has logic (as much as a "soft" science can have, anyway). Faith is not an issue. You're just off-base. My political beliefs flow from what I have reasoned out is right, not vice versa.
    No, you value freedom and so you have reasoned out the system which would best support that value. I never said markets don't exist, nor did I say that Economics doesn't have logic, the only claim I made was there was no such thing as a "free market" in the real world, and no such thing could ever exist. However, you are welcome to provide all the historical examples you have of free markets that have existed outside of political influence to show me how off base I am.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    No, you value freedom and so you have reasoned out the system which would best support that value. I never said markets don't exist, nor did I say that Economics doesn't have logic, the only claim I made was there was no such thing as a "free market" in the real world, and no such thing could ever exist. However, you are welcome to provide all the historical examples you have of free markets that have existed outside of political influence to show me how off base I am.
    Pennsylvania (my home state) in the 1680s and 1690s was a proprietary colony, and William Penn sold the land to settlers. It functioned as a pre-capitalist anarchy and did not even send taxes back to the Crown in the UK. People were free to farm or trade as they pleased. That's about as free as markets get. And, as I said earlier, if the government reformed its agricultural policy grain and corn would be excellent examples. It's not impossible for the government to do that. They could vote on it tomorrow.
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  3. #63
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    Default UN rejects water as human right

    Has Dick Cheney infiltrated the UN?
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by anii View Post
    Has Dick Cheney infiltrated the UN?
    If something is declared a right, it then become incumbent on the international community to provide it, whether it is economically feasible (or even ethical) or not. The same reason why the United States didn't want to call what was happening in Darfur "genocide." If it is genocide, we're required to step in. Semantics can mean a lot in geopolitics, even life or death on occasion. It's not right, but that is the situation.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Pennsylvania (my home state) in the 1680s and 1690s was a proprietary colony, and William Penn sold the land to settlers. It functioned as a pre-capitalist anarchy and did not even send taxes back to the Crown in the UK. People were free to farm or trade as they pleased. That's about as free as markets get. And, as I said earlier, if the government reformed its agricultural policy grain and corn would be excellent examples. It's not impossible for the government to do that. They could vote on it tomorrow.
    Pennsylvania, like most of the United States, was also forcibly taken form the native inhabitants of the land and was kept form them via the arms and militias of the settlers. Not exactly what I would consider a "free market". The political influence of colonialism is an easy one to forget.

    You can at least admit there are times when a freer market works and time when it doesn't, right? Or are you so ideologically driven by your imagined construct of a free market that you believe freer markets are always better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Pennsylvania, like most of the United States, was also forcibly taken form the native inhabitants of the land and was kept form them via the arms and militias of the settlers.
    Irrelevant to your question, which I answered.

    You can at least admit there are times when a freer market works and time when it doesn't, right?
    Certainly. I wouldn't suggest a free market in national defense or roadbuilding or criminal justice. And "free market" also means fewer barriers to entry, not just less government. There are major oligopolies in modern capitalism that I'd like to see opened up. Citing examples like that doesn't negate the fact that freeing up many markets would have short- and long-term benefits, especially when it comes to international trade.

    Or are you so ideologically driven by your imagined construct of a free market that you believe freer markets are always better?
    This is pure ad hominem. You're better than that.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Irrelevant to your question, which I answered.
    Not at all irrelevant. You are ignoring the reality that freedom is a commodity. Often for someone to have the freedom they want, it has to come at the cost of someone else's freedom. Ultimately, freedom is as limited as our resources, whether they be land, gold, oil, or even water. As long as that aspect of reality is true do you think a true free market can exist? Or is this free market suppose to be limited to only white men who own land?

    Certainly. I wouldn't suggest a free market in national defense or roadbuilding or criminal justice. And "free market" also means fewer barriers to entry, not just less government. There are major oligopolies in modern capitalism that I'd like to see opened up. Citing examples like that doesn't negate the fact that freeing up many markets would have short- and long-term benefits, especially when it comes to international trade.
    I'm not denying that freer markets could have benefits, only the practice of assuming that freer markets will have benefits. The real world functions very differently than the kind of world where a "free market" could be successful. Freer markets only work better in principle and only if people don't exploit and coerce others. Otherwise the result is inequalities and oppression. Hence why anarchists take up the non aggression principle, but ignore the reality that human greed motivates others not to do the same. It's the same kind of greed that keeps some from doing their fair share of work while taking handouts and its the same kind of greed that motivates corporate CEOs to steal from their investors. That greed is what makes a true "free market" impossible and what makes deregulation a gamble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Pennsylvania (my home state) in the 1680s and 1690s was a proprietary colony, and William Penn sold the land to settlers. It functioned as a pre-capitalist anarchy and did not even send taxes back to the Crown in the UK. People were free to farm or trade as they pleased. That's about as free as markets get. And, as I said earlier, if the government reformed its agricultural policy grain and corn would be excellent examples. It's not impossible for the government to do that. They could vote on it tomorrow.
    Yes, what a great pity it must seem to the corporations of today that they cannot rely on indentured servants to make the economy go as they did in those days.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I know you're being sarcastic
    Not in the least. I very much wish to see agricultural exports to Third World countries where imported food wouldn't simply be shunt to the government, but sold at local retail.

    Dead serious. Very Canadian of you; sarcastic of me!

  10. #70
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    Well in parts of the world it is causing issues between countries -

    http://webworld.unesco.org/water/wwa...erconflict.pdf

    Along the Okavango River, the international border between Namibia and Angola is located over the deepest portion of the river channel (the Thalweg). Thus, both Namibia and Angola consider that they have a "Riparian Right" to abstract water from this section of the Okavango River, if required to meet local or national needs. However, the proposed water abstraction scheme has raised concern in both Namibia and Botswana
    that the proposed abstraction scheme could have adverse consequences for the Okavango Delta in Botswana. As a result, it was important to all the countries concerned that the potential environmental impacts of the proposed water abstraction scheme should be assessed (Ashton, 1999).
    Riparian Right -

    Riparian water rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    the right to use (reasonably) the water on/adjacent to one's land.

    So there are some laws that treat it like property and also a common good.

    To that extent people should have the right to fair access to water (ie all using reasonable amounts) and this may involve rationing/allocations.

    There are some parts of the world that are losing their self-sufficiency in terms of water, and others who have always been marginal, but now struggle with greater demand (population and lifestyle issues) or the impact of climate cycles and climate change.

    Water supply projects are generally a "development" or aid priority in areas that have unsafe supplies. But the water "haves" do tend to waste it terribly - flushing good water away many times day!


    Given that we cannot live without water for more than a few days it is a human necessity. But like all human rights, it depends on those who speak up and/or act on behalf of those who lack water, free speech or what ever right we see them as being deprived of.

    Withholding food (via rationing, corruption or economic mismanagement such as inflation) and neglect of/meddling with resources (eg not providing safe water or by seizing farms) are ways by which governments can silence people - eg Zimbabwe at the moment. Guns are more effective on the starving.... and those who spend most of the day fetching water and seeking any food don't have too much time or energy to test their freedom of speech.

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