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  1. #51
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze
    I didn't read the article but I think that's a shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    That, in a nutshell, is why we are where we are today.
    You mean I'm supposed to make an informed opinion? Oberon, you are seriously cramping my style.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You mean I'm supposed to make an informed opinion? Oberon, you are seriously cramping my style.
    I noticed Usehername made the same comment you did, but Oberon didn't point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    (I didn't read the article.)

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You mean I'm supposed to make an informed opinion? Oberon, you are seriously cramping my style.
    Sorry. That seems to be my schtick.

  4. #54
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    ^^ I see why they call you wet blanket 'wicked'.

    Well, since this thread is going in a different more fun direction from the article anyhow, I'll jump right in.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Us getting poor = "so far, so good?" Why not "everyone get richer?"
    Because the current framework for 'global economy' depends on some people being "richer" and therefore others being "poorer". Even if the general standards of living or GDP or whatever marker you use for 'wealth' goes up across the board, there will still be inequalities with the system(s) as it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Air and sunlight can't be commodities, because one person's use of them has no effect on anyone else's. Water is definitely not in the same category.
    Are you kidding?

    Any resource, natural or otherwise, that people need for agriculture and general money making, or just want and are willing to pay for is a commodity. And it does severely impact other people. Example: several years ago I think there was a dispute in Europe because country A was harvesting clouds for rain and neighboring country B where the clouds naturally end up raining in protested, saying those were 'their' rain clouds and the country A was essentially stealing their rain.

    And like others have mentioned, you pollute a water source and let it conveniently wash away it becomes someone else's problem. You muck up the air and create less sunlight and more polluted air quality, you can impact MANY other people in terms of agriculture, health, tourism, and even property values. All these things can be translated to the bottom line and $$$.

    As soon as you say land can be owned, bought, and sold, you open up the door for owning air and water rights. US real estate law inherited much from Spanish and British notions of 'personal and real property' for better or worse. If you own land, in theory you own air rights above your land to a certain point and also mineral and water rights under your land to a certain point (this is different state to state). You aren't allowed to wholly own water or even mineral rights under 'your land' though, since water and oil runs through the property lines of different lots of land. And the state generally reserves the primary right to water under your property.

    Interesting tangential fact: In CA no one owns the beach, which means no one can own the ocean. It's public, for everyone and no one's use equally. In parts of the east coast, you can own the beach (like the Hamptons) Notice a theme of exclusivity and privilege?
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  5. #55
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post

    In other words, we don't have a "free market," nor could anything close to a "free market" exist in the modern world, so making "free market" speculations about what outcomes would occur in the actual market if it were made "freer" are meaningless. Even if it were made "freer" it would still not be a "free market" and so it would not operate under the same principles of a "free market" and it could have completely different outcomes.
    I disagree here. As William F. Buckley said, freedom is not indivisible. Some freedom is better than none at all, and a lot of freedom is even better than that. It is absolutely possible to posit that opening up a market to more competition, more consumers, and less regulation would lead to increases in production and decreases in price. In fact, you'd have to throw out economics entirely if you do not believe that. This is getting off-topic (and a water is not a good example of competitive markets in action), but you are just incorrect in your economic assumptions if you truly believe what you just wrote. If we were to eliminate agricultural subsidies within the United States, grain or corn would be fantastic examples of highly competitive markets with undifferentiated goods and few barriers of entry.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #56
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Well, since this thread is going in a different more fun direction from the article anyhow, I'll jump right in.
    Oh dear god, please do not corrupt this thread about the wonderful misery of human suffering due to a lack of sufficient distribution methods with fluffy hearts, pink pandas and feel good "F" stuff.

    friggin NFs, I swear

  7. #57
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    feel good "F" stuff.

    friggin NFs, I swear
    Hey, watch your mouth.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #58
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Sorry, I'm in my Dr. Cox mode because Scrubs is on.


  9. #59
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I disagree here. As William F. Buckley said, freedom is not indivisible. Some freedom is better than none at all, and a lot of freedom is even better than that. It is absolutely possible to posit that opening up a market to more competition, more consumers, and less regulation would lead to increases in production and decreases in price. In fact, you'd have to throw out economics entirely if you do not believe that. This is getting off-topic (and a water is not a good example of competitive markets in action), but you are just incorrect in your economic assumptions if you truly believe what you just wrote. If we were to eliminate agricultural subsidies within the United States, grain or corn would be fantastic examples of highly competitive markets with undifferentiated goods and few barriers of entry.
    Of course you disagree. It's your ideology. Just like a Christian could never discredit the possible existence of God, a libertarian could never discredit the possible existence of a free market. What you haven't figured out yet is your arguments for a "free market" are just as unsubstantiated as those for God. But the reality is that more freedom isn't always better, just as more equality isn't always better, and more justice isn't always better. The simple fact of the matter is you are arguing from your values, not your logic, and that is entirely the point I was making to Dark Razor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #60
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Of course you disagree. It's your ideology. Just like a Christian could never discredit the possible existence of God, a libertarian could never discredit the possible existence of a free market. What you haven't figured out yet is your arguments for a "free market" are just as unsubstantiated as those for God. But the reality is that more freedom isn't always better, just as more equality isn't always better, and more justice isn't always better. The simple fact of the matter is you are arguing from your values, not your logic, and that is entirely the point I was making to Dark Razor.
    Dude, that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. You really have no idea what you are talking about here. Markets exist. Economics has logic (as much as a "soft" science can have, anyway). Faith is not an issue. You're just off-base. My political beliefs flow from what I have reasoned out is right, not vice versa.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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