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Thread: Buying Sex

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Which is ethically wrong for a government to do. Because there is no other purpose for prostitutes than to sell their body. If the direct purchase of that body results in prosecution, then that is a round about way to try to control an industry.
    I dont think there's a great change involved here, I dont think there is any unethical deception on the part of government, prostitution remains outlawed. What has changed is the consideration of what is unlawful or deserving of policing and prosecution in prostitution, is it the supply or is it the buying/consuming/objectification of women/prostitutes (it could be gender neutral like the UK), the law, from the sound of things, reflects the consideration of the buying/consuming/objectification as being the crime. Therefore its a crime to visit prostitutes or buy sex, its not a crime to be a prostitute.

    It could be part of an effort, alongside other interventions, to try and manage the existence of prostitution and benefit or help the victims, which I think are frequently more likely to be the prostitutes than those buying sex from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I'm afraid that outlawing buying sex will not go very far in making the genders equal, if that's what you're hoping the outcome will be.
    I would agree with that but I think that so far as managing the existence of legally prohibited prostitution goes it is an attempt to avoid criminalising those working in the trade, which could proportionally help women more, the benefice could be towards women and so I could see a feminist agrument supporting it.

  3. #63
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think there's a great change involved here, I dont think there is any unethical deception on the part of government, prostitution remains outlawed. What has changed is the consideration of what is unlawful or deserving of policing and prosecution in prostitution, is it the supply or is it the buying/consuming/objectification of women/prostitutes (it could be gender neutral like the UK), the law, from the sound of things, reflects the consideration of the buying/consuming/objectification as being the crime. Therefore its a crime to visit prostitutes or buy sex, its not a crime to be a prostitute.

    It could be part of an effort, alongside other interventions, to try and manage the existence of prostitution and benefit or help the victims, which I think are frequently more likely to be the prostitutes than those buying sex from them.
    The bolded represents flawed law. Does it not? Should not governmental laws be held to the highest standard and integrity possible. Criminalizing something, while legalizing it's antecedent, is morally reprehensible from a national standpoint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    The bolded represents flawed law. Does it not? Should not governmental laws be held to the highest standard and integrity possible. Criminalizing something, while legalizing it's antecedent, is morally reprehensible from a national standpoint.
    Morally reprehensible from a national standpoint? I'm not sure, I think I may need clarification of what a national standpoint is.

    I do believe that government laws should be held to high standards of integrity, although I also believe that the criteria of reasonableness (rather than perfection/perfectionism) and harm also apply. So while a black and white prohibition of prostitution criminalising both prostitutes and pimps/purchasers would perhaps satisfy more in terms of most or more perfect legal integrity it wouldnt, to my mind, satisfy either reasonableness or harm.

    Someone simply being a prostitute is doing no harm, not to themselves or anyone else (if they had no clients would they even be a prostitute? Is there even such a thing without its consumers?), someone who is using prostitutes is a user and does harm to themselves, possibly the prostitute involved, possibly of a wider nature by contributing to the injury of vital norms.

  5. #65
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Morally reprehensible from a national standpoint? I'm not sure, I think I may need clarification of what a national standpoint is.
    If you were personally the one writing laws, would you be proud to write such a contradictory guideline for the masses? I wouldn't. What would you tell the prostitutes when they asked you, "So, how can i get paid if you are gonna arrest my johns?" lol......

    I do believe that government laws should be held to high standards of integrity, although I also believe that the criteria of reasonableness (rather than perfection/perfectionism) and harm also apply. So while a black and white prohibition of prostitution criminalising both prostitutes and pimps/purchasers would perhaps satisfy more in terms of most or more perfect legal integrity it wouldnt, to my mind, satisfy either reasonableness or harm.
    I think laws have to be black and white. Even while society isn't. Don't they?

    Someone simply being a prostitute is doing no harm, not to themselves or anyone else (if they had no clients would they even be a prostitute? Is there even such a thing without its consumers?), someone who is using prostitutes is a user and does harm to themselves, possibly the prostitute involved, possibly of a wider nature by contributing to the injury of vital norms.
    The bolded exactly. There is no prostitute without his/her consumers. So, my earlier argument still stands.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    If you were personally the one writing laws, would you be proud to write such a contradictory guideline for the masses? I wouldn't. What would you tell the prostitutes when they asked you, "So, how can i get paid if you are gonna arrest my johns?" lol......

    I think laws have to be black and white. Even while society isn't. Don't they?

    The bolded exactly. There is no prostitute without his/her consumers. So, my earlier argument still stands.
    I would agree that laws need to be clear but like I say I would apply criteria of reasonableness and harm as I described there.

    I dont think its contradictory. As I read it prostitution is illegal. Dont visit prostitutes because that's criminal. However why is it illegal? Well surely part of the reason is the harm it does to those acting as prostitutes, that being the case you do not want to create a law to protect those individuals which then criminalises them and puts them in prison, surely that's more contradictory?

    I dont think the public as incapable of understanding this, its not too complex and there's no ambivalence really, buying sex has always been illegal and its still illegal under those arrangements. In pursuit of neat law and clear laws its not a good idea to be simplistic or over simplify laws. Its the law, its not a novel and it shouldnt be judged for its literary merit.

  7. #67
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    I dont think its contradictory. As I read it prostitution is illegal. Dont visit prostitutes because that's criminal. However why is it illegal? Well surely part of the reason is the harm it does to those acting as prostitutes, that being the case you do not want to create a law to protect those individuals which then criminalises them and puts them in prison, surely that's more contradictory?

    I dont think the public as incapable of understanding this, its not too complex and there's no ambivalence really, buying sex has always been illegal and its still illegal under those arrangements. In pursuit of neat law and clear laws its not a good idea to be simplistic or over simplify laws. Its the law, its not a novel and it shouldnt be judged for its literary merit.
    The premise, i think, of this whole thread of Victor's, is to consider the resulting implications when governments make prostitution legal, but purchasing it illegal. Or did i miss something.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    The premise, i think, of this whole thread of Victor's, is to consider the resulting implications when governments make prostitution legal, but purchasing it illegal. Or did i miss something.
    I understood that he thought that legalising prostitution was one step towards womens liberation but that he thought the criminalisation of those buying sex would be a further move towards womans liberation. That's just reading what he had posted on the first page or two.

    I made the contribution that what I thought had happened was that prostitution, or being a prostitute, had been decriminalised, which is different from legalisation, and compatible with making buying sex illegal or keeping it illegal. Just my two bits. My posts where clarifications of those points when you suggested that it was contradictory policy.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not about regulation, its actually about decriminalising people who are really likely to be victims in the whole transaction.

    Therefore the authorities arent interested in arresting and punishing the prostitutes but the pimps and kerb crawlers, the people buying it.
    Quite so.

  10. #70
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    Victor, since you repped me, I thought this the best place to respond. I did not personally insult anyone, so I'm not sure what you are referring to... If you are referring to yourself, I was simply asking you a question, which I am wont to do in most threads I participate in where I become curious about the op or another responder. Instead of threatening banning, perhaps you could just have ignored me, or asked me to refrain from asking you personal questions in-thread.

    Besides, I see no insult in asking someone if they live with their mother. Is that an insult?

    I thought we had quite an interesting connection. Now my feelings are a bit hurt.....
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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