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Thread: Buying Sex

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    We will not require it when we are without unspoken gender bias preventing a woman from being in control of the free world.
    Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, is our sovereign, and her status can only be compared to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth I.

    Our Governor General, Ms Quentin Bryce AC, is our Head of State and our Commander-in-Chief.

    The Hon Julia Gillard MP is our Prime Minister.

    And the Chief Minister of Canberra, in the Australian Capital Territory, is Ms Katy Gallagher.

    So this little corner of the free world is governed by four women.

  2. #112
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    A woman ran for President during the last election, and prior to her ultimately losing the primary, she was thought to have had a good chance at getting into the Oval Office.

    Perhaps the reason she didn't win wasn't because she was a woman, but rather because there was a better qualified candidate for the position of President? I for one certainly think that's the case.
    Right. Let's take a moment to look at our most recent presidential election. To your point, I wonder how frequently women have been seen as serious candidates for the Presidency - and not instead (for this example in particular) offered as an attempt at clever political gamesmanship designed to offset a tidal wave of 'change' brought on by the impotency of the previous administration. She was a punchline. A misguided attempt at constructing a social equivalency to prevent a landslide victory for the democrats. She was the wrong answer to the question then, and remains a poor choice now.

    Perhaps she was not the woman you spoke to in your example, but the transparency in political tactic behind her appointment is something we cannot ignore if we are to be honest with how women are viewed and why Sarah Palin was offered as a political counterpunch to something as incredible as a Black man running for office.

    My original point remains. Women simply do not have the same perceptual/psychological reputation as men to lead or to hold positions of executive leadership in our shared American consciousness. I can find nothing shocking or controversial about that remark.

    Per capita, men still vastly outnumber women as CEOs. Men continue to vastly outnumber women as members of Congress -- it's only something like 270 women have ever been elected into Congress. Ever. Since Congress began in the years after the Revolutionary War. Keep in mind that each Congressional term of office routinely appoints over 500 people into positions of representation today. Simple math provides compelling evidence. A single term of office has almost double the seats that women have ever had.

    Can you really say that gender equality exists ? Things are getting better, sure. We have a long way to go before gender and gender roles stop being a significant factor when evaluating human worth.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And the next step in the liberation of women is to make the buying of sex a criminal offence.
    Should we also ban the purchase of maid services? Too many women end up in this dead end, low paying occupation.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Women simply do not have the same perceptual/psychological reputation as men to lead or to hold positions of executive leadership in our shared American consciousness. I can find nothing shocking or controversial about that remark.
    Indeed. Especially when you watch clips from her campaign speeches during which detractors "protested" with gender slurs and brandished brooms to signify that she should get back in the kitchen. Or the uproar about her unsuitability (and indeed, the unsuitability of the more emotional sex) as a leader when she cried.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Per capita, men still vastly outnumber women as CEOs. Men continue to vastly outnumber women as members of Congress -- it's only something like 270 women have ever been elected into Congress. Ever. Since Congress began in the years after the Revolutionary War. Keep in mind that each Congressional term of office routinely appoints over 500 people into positions of representation today. Simple math provides compelling evidence. A single term of office has almost double the seats that women have ever had.

    Can you really say that gender equality exists ? Things are getting better, sure. We have a long way to go before gender and gender roles stop being a significant factor when evaluating human worth.
    What's the usual counterargument? Different but equal? Women simply don't want to be public leaders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Should we also ban the purchase of maid services? Too many women end up in this dead end, low paying occupation.
    Yes, if we have one terrible, degrading job, that definitely means we should get more. Especially ones that are arguably more exploitative and degrading.
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  5. #115
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Indeed. Especially when you watch clips from her campaign speeches during which detractors "protested" with gender slurs and brandished brooms to signify that she should get back in the kitchen. Or the uproar about her unsuitability (and indeed, the unsuitability of the more emotional sex) as a leader when she cried.
    Yes. It's often in defeat that the character of your opposition is best revealed. How they mocked her. The stones they threw at her corpse.

    Pretend for a moment that these examples typify a radical fringe that does not represent the core beliefs or interests of her political opponents and instead were but a tangle of hard-hearted misogynists who simply shouted louder and clearer so as to be heard in the gleeful bonfire of her political failure. Where was the public outcry? What didn't her opponents immediately denounce such medieval behavior? I don't recall a widespread media surge sprinting to decapitate the spirit of these would-be outsiders as grotesquely foreign to the ideologies of contemporary American thought - especially in the context of our most important contest.

    Where was Katie Couric when we needed her?

    It's because it didn't happen. Sure, some supporters spoke up - to defend the GOP crown and scurry to hide in shame the broken pieces of Palin's regrettable political stances. Not in direct defense of her stature as a human being or to rightfully label crass and inappropriate the adolescent bullying of women in the name of Sarah Palin. Not even slightly. We did not attack the hostile sexist core philosophy where these beliefs held sanctuary because it is (and was) too oblique a target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What's the usual counterargument? Different but equal? Women simply don't want to be public leaders.
    Often, the usual counterpunch seems to offer one or two noteworthy examples where women have experienced success - often without commenting on what it took to get there. Apparently these anomalies are truly offered as sufficient evidence that things are equal and that the centuries of American sociocultural history to the contrary are not sufficiently provocative to see that change often takes time and can be altogether subdued if enough bright minds are convinced it isn't required.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Fuck, I meant psychic or physical violence.

    Also, fuck yourself. You should have inferred that I made a typo.
    Ha, I deserve that. It didn't occur to me until about 10 minutes ago. I'm slow but I get there ...
    I've been wrapped up in wondering how it's possible to best respect the prostitute's point of view. I know some women who say sex work is sex work, they like it, it's not demeaning, they are not suffering psychic violence or physical violence, and what they want to do with their time is their own business. If it were anything other than what it is, I would walk right off the subject without a further thought, but I get stuck in a perhaps prejudice that something's being damaged whether they think it is or not. Is this arrogance? Is it arrogant to the think the prostitutes need to be saved?

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ha, I deserve that. It didn't occur to me until about 10 minutes ago. I'm slow but I get there ...
    I've been wrapped up in wondering how it's possible to best respect the prostitute's point of view. I know some women who say sex work is sex work, they like it, it's not demeaning, they are not suffering psychic violence or physical violence, and what they want to do with their time is their own business. If it were anything other than what it is, I would walk right off the subject without a further thought, but I get stuck in a perhaps prejudice that something's being damaged whether they think it is or not. Is this arrogance? Is it arrogant to the think the prostitutes need to be saved?
    I think we all know what it's like to be human, and part of being human is forming vast rationalizations for activities or circumstances that are too difficult to accept, for whatever reason, at the level of reality. Just as atrocities committed by, say, a dictator are rationalized as being good for the preservation of "morality" or racial purity or whatever, I imagine that atrocities to one's self are similarly rationalized as being "good" or harmless in one way or another. I've known drug and alcohol addicts, for instance, that insist that they're not addicted for this or that reason, or who insist that the drug is actually doing them good. For obvious reasons, we don't believe them. Why should it be any different for physically and spiritually degrading practices like prostitution, except to justify our own desire to continue such practices?

    Thanks for the thoughtful response, BTW.
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  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think we all know what it's like to be human, and part of being human is forming vast rationalizations for activities or circumstances that are too difficult to accept, for whatever reason, at the level of reality. Just as atrocities committed by, say, a dictator are rationalized as being good for the preservation of "morality" or racial purity or whatever, I imagine that atrocities to one's self are similarly rationalized as being "good" or harmless in one way or another. I've known drug and alcohol addicts, for instance, that insist that they're not addicted for this or that reason, or who insist that the drug is actually doing them good. For obvious reasons, we don't believe them. Why should it be any different for physically and spiritually degrading practices like prostitution, except to justify our own desire to continue such practices?
    The difference here is that the degradation that comes from the sex trade has more to do with the cultural stigma attached to it, the dangers that are a natural part of the lifestyle, and the fact that most of the women involved cannot escape their situation. Many do find it degrading; however, if it were legalized, and these women were given a genuine opportunity to choose whether or not they wanted to stay, this would become less of a factor, and it could even attract a greater volume of people who are interested in that type of work, but are understandably wary of the risk it carries. Over time, you would see a shift from those who did not find this type of work appealing being slowly replaced by those who did, and wanted to be a part of it.

  9. #119
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Guess View Post
    The difference here is that the degradation that comes from the sex trade has more to do with the cultural stigma attached to it, the dangers that are a natural part of the lifestyle, and the fact that most of the women involved cannot escape their situation. Many do find it degrading; however, if it were legalized, and these women were given a genuine opportunity to choose whether or not they wanted to stay, this would become less of a factor, and it could even attract a greater volume of people who are interested in that type of work, but are understandably wary of the risk it carries. Over time, you would see a shift from those who did not find this type of work appealing being slowly replaced by those who did, and wanted to be a part of it.
    Like with every other profession....?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Like with every other profession....?
    Exactly.

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