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  1. #51
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Systems which favor detractors discourage conformity to it's values. People won't follow the law if they don't respect it.
    You've not answered the question.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #52
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    It's all relative. It's also mostly irrelevant if the executed is guilty or innocent. Who of us can remember executed people who where proven innocent? Well, we know they exist, but that's about it.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You've not answered the question.
    Yes I did.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Yes I did.
    No, you haven't. All you've said is that not having capital punishment encourages "detractors" and "discourages conformity to its values," because people won't "respect the law." You haven't even bothered trying to explain why or how it does all of those things. Why would removing the death penalty cause a general loss of respect for the law?
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  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    How?
    Its basically public choice theory, in a society which values punishment highly then the innocents who may perish will be considered collaterol damage or casualities of an otherwise proper system, that "price" is not considered so costly or gravely as the guilty escaping punishment because of anxieties about protecting the wrongfully accused.

    In some ways the same thing could be said of societies that imprison aswell as those which execute because each involves a loss of life, if you consider incarceration and the loss of freedom as loss of life and I know many ex-prisoners talk of losing years of their life.

    How is it injurious to the social fabric? Well if the laws and criminal justice system do not reflect the norms and mores of the society they serve there will be no satisfaction with the administration of justice, it wont necessarily result in a downward spiral of lawlessness and deviance but it will have profound psychological impact if people decide that they are prey to the predations of criminals with no possible means of redress or justice.

    There's a ton of public money spent in the UK on different measures of satisfaction with policing or criminal justice proceedings and also lots spent on victim support, the reasons being that its been discovered there are high correlations between the sense of satisfaction with redress which people experience and their liability to be able to process the traumatic impact of crimes without becoming nervous wrecks, depressives or unfit for work and daily life.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, you haven't. All you've said is that not having capital punishment encourages "detractors" and "discourages conformity to its values," because people won't "respect the law." You haven't even bothered trying to explain why or how it does all of those things. Why would removing the death penalty cause a general loss of respect for the law?
    I dont believe it would.

    I also dont believe that any crisis of authority or respect for lawfulness, which is a little more than simply remaining of the authorities radar, will necessarily be correlate with an ascendency in criminal behaviour among the formerly or most lawful parts of society. It would be liable to just result in increased levels of depression or susceptibility to victimisation possibly, resulting in the sorts of neighbourhoods were certain sorts of behaviour are the norm which when they spill over into other situations elsewhere are criminal offences, the toxic effect spreading out from there.

    The removal of the death penalty itself may or may not have a major impact, what would be important would be whether or not that was considered a move to a less punitive arrangment, especially if the law abidding desire a punitive recourse or redress for victims of crime. Perhaps there is a deterence factor too but I'll be honest its secondary, the sorts of people who are subject to prosecution usually arent the cleverest, they're generally those that are failures at criminal lifestyles, failures in general with seriously poor capacities to engage in conscientious or consequential thinking.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Why would removing the death penalty cause a general loss of respect for the law?
    It contributes to the feeling of unfairness. People will be less likely to voluntarily adhere to a system that is perceived to be unfair.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Whoa whoa WHOA. You people seriously think he was innocent?
    Just read the wikipedia article that was already linked.. The entire chain of events that night says nothing to promote his innocence. This was not a man who spent his evening praying in church or staying at home with family. Troy Davis shot someone in the face for yelling obscenities while leaving a party (it's not alleged, by the way, he was convicted for that and the conviction held) and then that same weapon he used to SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE earlier that night was then used to kill an ex-army police officer who tried to stop Davis from beating the shit out of a homeless person. The officer was shot in the heart, and then the face.. and McPhail never even drew his weapon.
    Yeah I thought something similar. Also, this was a black guy from a middle class neighborhood in Georgia, it's not like some poor disadvantaged guy from the hood is being unfairly discriminated against. I'm not buying it. I don't think this is "because he's black."

    I mean, I'm also not a big fan of the death penalty, I personally think it's a good idea for people like sociopaths who will never be cured, some serial killers, and hopelessly brain washed terrorists, I don't necessarily advocate it in cases like this - just to put that out there. It's just that I'm questioning why people think this guy was innocent?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    That's messed up, I have to say.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    That's messed up, I have to say.
    Okay, that's messed up.

    I don't even like that white guy's face.

    But as I mentioned earlier, I don't like death sentence at all unless it serves a logical purpose - sociopath, serial killer, terrorist, et al.

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