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  1. #31
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    The prosecutors had already proven guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. He lost subsequently appeals at lower standards than clear establishment. What, other than a "clear establishment" of innocence, should suffice to undo that?.
    The evidence prosecutors used to have a jury decide proof beyond reasonable doubt was tainted.

    By shifting the burden for the matter to be remanded for a new trial on appeal shifts the burden that originally belonged to the prosecutor to the defense prove "innocence" (what is a "clear establishment" of innocence anywa?, the language sounds too similar to the large legal burden of "clear and convincing"[(a much heavier burden than "preponderance of the evidence" evidence which prosecutors are required to show for taking a person's children or committing them to mental institutions.].

    Any standard placed on the defense (with the exception of showing an affirmative defense) should have been simply a showing a "reasonable doubt" ". Otherwise, in this adversarial legal system, it only encourages prosecutors to proffer tainted/corrupt evidence.

    This is bad in a noncapital case. It is essentially the judiciary washing their hands prior to having the state murder a person in a capital case.

    Edit: In the very least have a reasonable standard of evidence in these cases to change a death sentence to life in prison without the possiblity of parole. Since a do over is rather pointless once someone has been executed
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #32
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    The new trial was because the evidence that prosecutors used to have a jury decide proof beyond reasonable doubt was tainted. By shifting the burden to prove "innocence" (what is a "clear establishment" of innocence anyway, the language sounds too similar to the large legal burden of "clear and convincing" (a much heavier burden than "preponderance of the evidence" evidence which prosecutors are required to show for taking a person's children or committing them to mental institutions.).

    Any standard placed on the defense (with the exception of showing an affirmative defense) should have been simply a showing a "reasonable doubt" that was not a "harmless error". Otherwise, in this adversarial legal system, it only encourages prosecutors to proffer tainted/corrupt evidence. This is bad in a noncapital case. It is essentially the judiciary washing their hands prior to having the state murder a person in a capital case.
    You do realize that the "clear establishment" standard was by the time they got to the high court and that he repeatedly failed to win his appeals at the level of district and circuit courts that have a lower standard, right?
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  3. #33
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    You do realize that the "clear establishment" standard was by the time they got to the high court and that he repeatedly failed to win his appeals at the level of district and circuit courts that have a lower standard, right?
    Yeah. Of course the issue does not go to the Supreme Court for review via certiorari until it goes through the lower courts. Its not brand new issues nor brand new trials in most cases. Most issues not raised by counsel at trial or initially on appeal in the state appellate courts are waived regardless of injustice in most cases. Thus for those issues not raised by his public defender he will lose and they are limited on the narrow issues of new evidence that the defense could not have reasonably obtained in preparation of trial (i.e. recanting of percipient witness testimony because police/prosecution intimidation or reliable evidence that someone else commited the crime) or those objections preserved at trial (which many public defender fail to do).
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #34
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Yeah. Of course the issue does not go to the Supreme Court for review via certiorari until it goes through the lower courts. Its not brand new issues nor brand new trials in most cases. Most issues not raised by counsel at trial or initially on appeal in the state appellate courts are waived regardless of injustice in most cases. Thus for those issues not raised by his public defender he will lose and they are limited on the narrow issues of new evidence that the defense could not have reasonably obtained in preparation of trial (i.e. recanting of percipient witness testimony because police/prosecution intimidation) or those objections preserved at trial (which many public defender fail to do).
    So what would you have the high court do?
    hoarding time and space
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  5. #35
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    So what would you have the high court do?
    I think the rules of appeal should be different in death penalty cases. People including judges, witnesses, police, and attorney's make mistakes all of the time. In death penalty cases a technical mistake should not cost a person their life.

    Thus prosecutors would be more careful which cases they attempt to get the death sentence for (i.e. the most obvious and worst cases) and there would be less mistakes in executing the wrong/less culpable persons.

    I suspect the below will be more likely evolution in the law because the U.S. Supreme Court hates hearing death penalty cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Edit: In the very least have a reasonable standard of evidence in these cases to change a death sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Since a do over is rather pointless once someone has been executed
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    I think the rules of appeal should be different in death penalty cases. People including judges, witnesses, police, and attorney's make mistakes all of the time. In death penalty cases a technical mistake should not cost a person their life.
    This is all very vague, and does not address my question about the standard you would have the Supreme Court use to evaluate.

    Thus prosecutors would be more careful which cases they attempt to get the death sentence for (i.e. the most obvious and worst cases) and their would be less mistakes in executing the wrong/less culpable persons.
    And the prosecutors in this case believe they were doing just that.

    I suspect the below will be more likely evolution in the law because the U.S. Supreme Court hates hearing death penalty cases.
    Of course they hate it. They are being asked to jump in and evaluate a case that many other capable judges at varying levels have looked at and found not worth it. A case from which they are so far removed, not having been in the trenches accumulating and evaluating the facts and nuances. Rarely does it involve anything of legal interest.
    And the reward is many people hating and questioning them for it.
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  7. #37
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    This is all very vague, and does not address my question about the standard you would have the Supreme Court use to evaluate.
    The standards are there. If something is done or not done at trial which case law or legislative law has deemed "prejudicial error" then the case is subject to complete reversal, remand or modification. However, in most cases if the objection is not made by the defense (and preserved on the record) it is waived.

    Thus the standard I would use for death pelanty cases (as opposed to all other criminal cases) is a de novo review of the case as if all proper objections were made on the record. In all death penalty cases so someone would not be subject excution for mistake of counsel (most often members of the lower or middle classses have to use the publlic defender). The habius corpus review of inadequate counsel is severly lacking and has been limited because it is so often used/abused in noncapital cases. The rules to limit "two bites of the apple" in noncaptial cases has produced a very narrow saftey net for unfair cases in capital cases.

    To reiterate keep the standards that are in place (i.e. in general the legal rules to ensure a fair trial) but no waiver of prejudicial error in capital cases simply for failure to state the objection on the record. Innocent or less culpable individuals will still be executed but it will not be as common and more narrow social inequities between whom is killed by the state.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  8. #38
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    The standards are there. If something is done or not done at trial which case law or legislative law has deemed prejudicial error then the case is subject to complete reversal, remand or modification. However, in most cases if the objection is not made by the defense (and preserved on the record) it is waived.
    But defense attorney's failure to provide effective counsel provides another source of an appeal. Moreover, courts below had a lower bar than "clear establishment," e.g., "a substantive claim of actual innocence." Those and other grounds were looked at and rejected. Over and over again.

    The standard I would use for death pelanty cases is a de novo review of the case as if all proper objections were made on the record in all death penalty cases so someone would not be excution for mistake of counsel. The habius corpus review of inadequate counsel is severly lacking and has been limited because it is so often used/abused in noncapital cases. The rules to limit "two bites of the apple" in noncaptial cases has produced a very narrow saftey net for unfair cases in capital cases.
    Leaving aside that the opinion that the safety net is narrow, do you think it is sensible or feasible to have the Supreme Court entertaining de novo review of capital cases, realizing that most of these carry no new legal issue for the court to settle and realizing the tremendous abuse of smoke and mirrors tactics invariably used to save a life? Why bother have all the other courts review?
    hoarding time and space
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  9. #39
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    Execution and Torture of Helpless Prisoners

    Civilized countries don't execute helpless prisoners.

    And civilized countries don't torture helpless prisoners.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    how many rightful executions of already imprisoned men is worth one wrongful execution of an innocent man? For me, that answer is simply. No amount. The latter solution results in fewer dead innocents, so I go with it.
    To me, executing a thug who has a 1% chance of "innocence" is not as bad as failing to ensure justice for an murdered upstanding member of society. Principles like these serve to weaken the social fabric.

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