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  1. #21
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    It's a baffling piece of racial wolf-crying.
    It is racial wolf-crying

    But is it baffling?

    I say no

  2. #22
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    after all,
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    lawyers gonna lawy
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  3. #23
    Senior Member Idealatious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Is there really such a thing as "no doubt"?

    Even people who plead guilty aren't absolved of doubt
    Maybe not no doubt. And that's true, our system does sometimes make it beneficial for people to plead guilty in order to get a lighter setence. But should people be killed if there's no doubt? Kind of a philosophical problem, but I would say it's better for 100 guilty people to have really long prison sentences rather than let 1 innocent person die. (I modified the popular phrase a little)

    At least there is such a thing as beyond a reasonable doubt. When 7 out of 9 witnesses later contradict parts of their testimony, that is doubt, especially when there only is witness evidence, when there is suggestion of possible police bribes, and there is the (unsubstantiated, admittedly) implication that one of the witnesses who did not recant may have been involved.

    I'm not saying he was innocent. I'm saying he could have be innocent. No one should die if there's no conclusive proof of murder. And I definitely don't support capital punishment - but I'm not going to argue about that; I'm absolutely many debates have been held before on the subject between far more eloquent debaters than I.

    Also, this is interesting, from Time:

    "Davis' best chance may have come last year, in a hearing ordered by the U.S. Supreme Court. It was the first time in 50 years that justices had considered a request to grant a new trial for a death row inmate.

    The high court set a tough standard for Davis to exonerate himself, ruling that his attorneys must "clearly establish" Davis' innocence - a higher bar to meet than prosecutors having to prove guilt. After the hearing judge ruled in prosecutors' favor, the justices didn't take up the case."
    Last edited by Idealatious; 09-22-2011 at 01:48 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar

  4. #24
    Senior Member Idealatious's Avatar
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    This is also interesting. Although I feel like everyone knows this already; might as well:

    "Fewer than 40% of Georgia homicide cases involve white victims, but in 87% of the cases in which a death sentence is imposed the victim is white. White-victim cases are roughly eleven times more likely than black-victim cases to result in a sentence of death.

    When the race of the defendant is added to the analysis, the following pattern appears: 22% of black defendants who kill white victims are sentenced to death; 8% of white defendants who kill white victims are sentenced to death; 1% of black defendants who kill black victims are sentenced to death; and 3% of white defendants who kill black victims are sentenced to death. (Only 64 of the approximately 2500 homicide cases studied involved killings of blacks by whites, so the 3% figure in this category represents a total of two death sentences over a six-year period. Thus, the reason why a bias against black defendants is not even more apparent is that most black defendants have killed black victims; almost no cases are found of white defendants who have killed black victims; and virtually no defendant convicted of killing a black victim gets the death penalty.)

    No factor other than race explains these racial patterns. The multiple-regression analysis with the greatest explanatory power shows that after controlling for non-racial factors, murderers of white victims receive a death sentence 4.3 times more frequently than murderers of black victims. The race of the victim proves to be as good a predictor of a capital sentence as the aggravating circumstances spelled out in the Georgia statute, such as whether the defendant has a prior murder conviction or was the primary actor in the present murder.

    Only 5% of Georgia killings result in a death sentence; yet, when more than 230 non-racial variables are controlled for, the death-sentencing rate is 6% higher in white-victim cases than in black-victim cases. A murderer therefore incurs less risk of death by committing the murder in the first place than by selecting a white victim instead of a black one."

    from http://www.capitalpunishmentincontext.org/issues/race

    It's not this one "black person executed for murder" case that bothers me. It's the systematic racism inherent in the judicial system.

  5. #25
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    The high court set a tough standard for Davis to exonerate himself, ruling that his attorneys must "clearly establish" Davis' innocence - a higher bar to meet than prosecutors having to prove guilt.
    The prosecutors had already proven guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. He lost subsequently appeals at lower standards than clear establishment. What, other than a "clear establishment" of innocence, should suffice to undo that?

    Fewer than 40% of Georgia homicide cases involve white victims, but in 87% of the cases in which a death sentence is imposed the victim is white. White-victim cases are roughly eleven times more likely than black-victim cases to result in a sentence of death.
    That discrepancy would be fixed if they pursued the death penalty more often in black-victim cases. However, that would in all likelihood result in more "black person executed for murder" cases. I somehow doubt that would appease the current crop of protesters.

    All of this of course is a separate issue from Troy Davis's case.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post


    Death Penalty should be the cheapest thing on earth. A .22 rimfire round costs all of 10 cents, and is more humane than lethal injection. The statistics for it being "expensive" are because we give prisoners YEARS in the appeals process and allow every technicality in the book to overturn sentences and convictions.

    And no, it's not about revenge. It's about Justice. Troy Davis killed a man (an honourable man, by all accounts, a family man) because McPhail had the audacity to attempt to carry out his duty.

    Justice, not "feelings" decide what must be done.

    Consider; your feelings and values are saying "he should have been allowed to live" - the family's feelings and values say "vengeance."

    Justice is represented by a blind woman holding a scale for a reason. Troy Davis made his choices, and he tipped the scale. Justice, not the family, and not personal desires, dictates that the scale be balanced. A life for a life.

    WOW are you serious? that is some pretty sick crap right there. If it weren't for appeals I'm sure many innocent people would have been executed, and having an innocent person executed for something they didn't do is far more wrong than executing a guilty man. A 22 more humane? I'm not so sure about that...

  7. #27
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Death Penalty should be the cheapest thing on earth. A .22 rimfire round costs all of 10 cents, and is more humane than lethal injection. The statistics for it being "expensive" are because we give prisoners YEARS in the appeals process and allow every technicality in the book to overturn sentences and convictions.

    And no, it's not about revenge. It's about Justice. Troy Davis killed a man (an honourable man, by all accounts, a family man) because McPhail had the audacity to attempt to carry out his duty.

    Justice, not "feelings" decide what must be done.

    Consider; your feelings and values are saying "he should have been allowed to live" - the family's feelings and values say "vengeance."

    Justice is represented by a blind woman holding a scale for a reason. Troy Davis made his choices, and he tipped the scale. Justice, not the family, and not personal desires, dictates that the scale be balanced. A life for a life.
    None of this answered my core question, which was less the cost and more: in your opinion, how many dead guilty men (men who are in prison for life and no longer a threat to society anyways, thus their execution does not save innocent lives) is worth even one innocent man killed for some crime he did not commit? Net balance on that is clearly more innocent people dead. I'm not saying Troy Davis is necessarily that man, I made no comment on his guilt or innocence, but there is no argument people who were executed have been later cleared of their charges later, and it will almost certainly happen again (presumably still a few times a year, as it has been going for a while).

    So, the question stands: how many rightful executions of already imprisoned men is worth one wrongful execution of an innocent man? For me, that answer is simply. No amount. The latter solution results in fewer dead innocents, so I go with it.

    I'm also gonna toss on there are extra appeals for the death sentence because a person ought to have more chances to clear their name if such an extreme sentence is going to be inflicted. I mean, the USSR just shot people in the head the day after trial. Maybe not the best system to emulate. The appeals process at least attempts to limit wrongful execution.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #28
    Senior Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    @Idealitious

    I'm not arguing whether or not there's racism in the south. There definitely is. I LIVE HERE. I've seen black people be mistreated first hand, but I also received a beat down for daring to try to play basketball in my neck of the woods. So I don't care about racism; it's not one way.

    The point here, and the only thing *I* care about, is that Troy Davis killed 2 people and earned his death sentence.
    I felt the same way about Brian Nichols. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Nichols ) [Who should have been executed too, by the way.]
    I felt the same way about Ted Bundy. [Who was executed, and rightly so.]
    And I'll feel the same way about anyone who commits murder and is recalcitrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    WOW are you serious? that is some pretty sick crap right there. If it weren't for appeals I'm sure many innocent people would have been executed, and having an innocent person executed for something they didn't do is far more wrong than executing a guilty man. A 22 more humane? I'm not so sure about that...
    Leaving OUT the cost of legal fees, the drug cocktail they use to kill prisoners is actually HELLA painful ; they just can't scream because we put them under far enough. They still feel it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_....S._executions
    Besides which, the drug cocktail is also relatively expensive.

    And yes. A supersonic bullet that enters the brain and scrambles the gray matter to goo in the space of a 1/16 of a second is less painful than the chemicals that take minutes for you to die from.

    Regarding your comment re: legal fees.
    If it weren't for appeals, we wouldn't have so many rapists and murderers released on technicalities to rape and murder once more.

    It boils down to personal philosophy. Are you an idealist, or are you an ends justifies the means person? Would you rather have the occasional innocent executed, or dozens of innocents killed by murderers who should never have had a second chance?

    ...

    All of this is immaterial, and everyone needs to CALM DOWN. We barely execute anyone in the United States.

    That's maybe a thousand or so. MAYBE. IN THE LAST 50 YEARS. With a US population in the hundreds of millions!

    Do you know how OFTEN people murder, with witnesses, and NO DOUBT of guilt.. yet we do not execute them? Brian Nichols [who I already cited] is the most recent incidence of this in my area. WHY does everyone want the guilty to live? They have taken life from another. Justice says they should lose theirs in consequence.

    Whatever happened to justice?!? Why is everyone sympathetic to a thug who killed two people in one night? What about the family who lost their provider, husband and father? Doesn't that LOSS count for anything? Doesn't ANYONE see how WRONG that was?
    Last edited by Wanderer; 09-22-2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Tallied the numbers wrong; a thousand or so, rather than "A few hundred"

  9. #29
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Do you know how OFTEN people murder, with witnesses, and NO DOUBT of guilt.. yet we do not execute them?
    We don't want to be like them, so we are reluctant to kill humans, even when there might be good reasons to.

  10. #30
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    It boils down to personal philosophy. Are you an idealist, or are you an ends justifies the means person? Would you rather have the occasional innocent executed, or dozens of innocents killed by murderers who should never have had a second chance?
    There's also the principled position that the state should not be granted the authority to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Do you know how OFTEN people murder, with witnesses, and NO DOUBT of guilt.. yet we do not execute them? Brian Nichols [who I already cited] is the most recent incidence of this in my area. WHY does everyone want the guilty to live? They have taken life from another. Justice says they should lose theirs in consequence.

    Whatever happened to justice?!? Why is everyone sympathetic to a thug who killed two people in one night? What about the family who lost their provider, husband and father? Doesn't that LOSS count for anything? Doesn't ANYONE see how WRONG that was?
    1. There are many theories of justice and not all of them are retributive.
    2. It doesn't take too many turns of the mind to see that opposition to the death penalty does not amount to approbation of the crime.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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