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  1. #21
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I really like how you went from here:


    To there:
    They are bothe easy and expedient.

    I'd rather live in a society where we tried to do hard things that take careful and deliberate contemplation.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Women are crrrrrrrrrrrazy.
    Only as crazy as the men that impregnate them.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #23
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Only as crazy as the men that impregnate them.
    INDEED.

    I wanted to be sick when I read that she smothered the babies, in the toilet, crying, as if they were lives she could take. Destroying tiny things that are alive and wailing and can't fight back? Anyone who thinks that's "okay" is a sick freak. That's right - I said sick freak, and you can eat my judgment for breakfast. I understand desperation and terror - no woman in her *right mind* would suffocate her own crying newborn baby - it goes against everything evolution has ingrained in her - BUT I *refuse* to understand "technical" murder or the technicalizing of it on any level. The fact that she went through with the pregnancy and didn't adopt the babies out is beyond comprehension. She needs a mental health evaluation.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    I don't think I could disagree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Well, it's just that nobody else knew about the existence of these children, and in all likelihood suffocation immediately after birth isn't a terrible way to go (at least no more terrible than a partial birth abortion).
    How is the knowledge of the their is existence in any way relevant? Furthermore, is that to say the action has no inherent value, and therefore value is only attributed based on its impact on others? Also, whether or not you perceive the method of killing as more humane, that still doesn't change that she took the life of her helpless children. Fundamentally, I see it as an exertion of power by imposing on their ability to have life and pursue happiness; She made the decision for them that maintaining her surroundings was of more value than the lives of her own children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    What would putting her in jail serve?
    I'm not even sure jail is the right place, yet I think she needs to be isolated from society. For me, I don't think it's a matter of serving justice, but removing someone from society that's clearly not capable of functioning within it. You have to admit that someone who decides that the best course of action to prevent other's from finding out about their pregnancy is to smother their newborn twins is not of proper mental health. I mean, it's not only that lack of maternal compassion, but the display of irrationality in her desperation that's concerning, as well as the general lack of empathy. I mean, pardon the slippery slope, but had she of gotten away with this, if mixed within society at large, what would she be capable of doing in the even that sense of desperation resurfaces? Realistically, nothing of that severity is a possible answer, yet given her history, is it best to leave that to chance? Whether she'd repeat something of this magnitude is irrelevant, it's the fact that she's clearly too much of an elevated risk of danger to remain integrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Are there really a large portion of pregnant women who give birth in toilets and kill the babies? "Justice" in this case simply means placing a woman who could otherwise lead a happy life in jail.
    Again, I'm very concerned with having someone around whose both capable and willing to end lives in the pursuit of their own happiness.
    "I'm just here so I won't get fined."

  5. #25
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I would like to answer this. Jonnyboy can agree with and thank me later when he is back from prostituting himself to pay his doctor bills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    How is the knowledge of the their is existence in any way relevant?
    The answer is the answer to the question: Why is murder bad? It is: Because losing someone you know/like/love makes you sad. Personally, I would add (and Jonnyboy perhaps disagree) that murder is bad because it interferes with other people's (life) plans. But in this case, where the victims were neither aware of themselves, what life was, what was happening or would happen next, nor known to anyone who might care about them, the murder makes no one sad and interferes with no one's plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Furthermore, is that to say the action has no inherent value
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    [...] and therefore value is only attributed based on its impact on others?
    While Jonnyboy might say 'yes' here, I say 'no'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    I mean, pardon the slippery slope, but had she of gotten away with this, if mixed within society at large, what would she be capable of doing in the even that sense of desperation resurfaces? Realistically, nothing of that severity is a possible answer, yet given her history, is it best to leave that to chance?
    Not enough information available (or acquired). Yet I can imagine there are many harmless psychopaths on the loose.

  6. #26
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    I guess I just don't value life as many others here do.

    @Nicodemus
    Your main point is that a person's life is as valuable as the utility they bring to others. Looking at things through this prism, you do not value life in and of itself, and thus murdering a famous composer would be akin to burning down a museum or something.

    @EffEmDoubleyou
    If someone managed to end your life without you suffering and without anyone else suffering (your friends, family, etc), then I wouldn't have any issue with it. However, if there were public knowledge of such a murderer, our freedoms would be curtailed out of fear. Making murders like that public would in effect cause those murders to not meet the criteria, since people would be adversely affected as a result.

    With specific regard to this case, I would like to put out there that murdering unwanted newly born twins ≠ murdering adults, children, etc. Nobody else knew of these babies, and even with the knowledge that it happened nobody is terribly affected (except perhaps for this girls parents, who have to deal with their daughter now). Whether or not an action like this is correlated with a proclivity for violence against others, as @Stigmata pointed out, is another question. I don't disagree with isolating her if that is proven to be the case.

    What it fundamentally comes down to is this: We will all be dead eventually, and I don't see a major difference between being dead today vs. being dead in 20 years. Am I going to commit suicide or kill others? No, because I enjoy life, fear death, and vehemently oppose causing others to suffer. It is the expectation of death, and the pain and suffering that comes with it that I am against, not death itself.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #27
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Your main point is that a person's life is as valuable as the utility they bring to others. Looking at things through this prism, you do not value life in and of itself, and thus murdering a famous composer would be akin to burning down a museum or something.
    Actually, it is not my point at all. I used the composer because he also makes for a nice potentiality argument. The point is: He values his existence, other people are likely to value theirs as well, therefore one should not put an end to anyone's existence - unless [disastrous consequences if not killed].

  8. #28

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    It's wrong because she holds responsibility for the children. It was her responsibility to care for the children and she failed to do that. I am with Jaguar and EffEm, I think you're just trolling.

    By the way, nice panda hat.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The answer is the answer to the question: Why is murder bad? It is: Because losing someone you know/like/love makes you sad. Personally, I would add (and Jonnyboy perhaps disagree) that murder is bad because it interferes with other people's (life) plans. But in this case, where the victims were neither aware of themselves, what life was, what was happening or would happen next, nor known to anyone who might care about them, the murder makes no one sad and interferes with no one's plans.
    But isn't infringing upon their ability to exist long enough to develop their own plan essentially the same thing?
    "I'm just here so I won't get fined."

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    In my opinion, murder is perfectly acceptable if all of the following criteria are met:

    1) The victim has no beforehand knowledge that he/she is going to be killed.
    2) There is minimal time in which the victim is aware of his/her demise (e.g. a quick kill, also implying minimal suffering).
    3) Nobody else, besides perhaps the attacker, suffers* as a result of the death of the victim.
    4) There might be a bit more to add here, but I'll have to think it through.

    *The degree of suffering is left ambiguous, but is assumed to be more than say, liberals suffered when George Bush was elected to his second term.

    We all die eventually...
    There are ways to test this, but I'm not sure you'd be happy with the outcome.

    3) Nobody else, besides perhaps the attacker, suffers* as a result of the death of the victim.
    What, you don't think this impacts the father, the grandparents, the sister, and whoever else?
    They just lost their children, their grandchildren, and nieces/nephews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I'm not a fan of abortions after the first trimester
    Me either. I support abortion rights, but also I don't think abortions are equivalent to mere birth control.

    I don't see the difference between late term abortion and two minutes after birth abortion. Obviously there are laws to consider. But in terms of ethics, if A is okay then B should be okay because breathing air is only a technical difference.
    It's an arbitrary line, as best as I can see it. But there has to be a line somewhere. In this day and age, the line is muddy; without technology to lean on, I think the delineation between the unborn and the born was much stronger, but nowadays we can see pictures of our babies at 5 months gestation or even far younger, we can even operate on them successfully months before they are born. My sister was telling me she was pregnant only a month or two into the pregnancy, and then she had a miscarriage. We are identifying babies early in the pregnancy and assigning them the emotional status of born people, for good or bad, and that really muddies the line.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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