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  1. #31
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    despotism is inevitable in all authoritarian and left wing countries. the system is designed to suppress the ambitions and power of anyone who reaches past a certain point, but those who are able to beat the system will become it's dictators. the system controls the public, the dictator controls the system. to control people's income, livelihood and the entire economy of a country takes tremendous amounts of power, power centered in the hands of a handful of individuals. do you actually trust any kind of authority with that kind of power? you shouldn't. it draws the most vile, corrupt people imaginable. people who wish to control the lives of others and enslave them to their will. freedom with responsibility is better than servitude without responsibility.
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  2. #32
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    If socialism isn't inherently despotic, then fascism isn't inherently despotic, either. Totalitarianism is, of course, but I think true socialism or fascism (even without racist or extreme nationalist tendencies) tend to despotism, especially in the economic realm.
    I suppose you dismiss out of hand anything to do with anarchist socialism (or liberal socialism/libertarian socialism/etc.,?)
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  3. #33
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    despotism is inevitable in all authoritarian and left wing countries. the system is designed to suppress the ambitions and power of anyone who reaches past a certain point, but those who are able to beat the system will become it's dictators. the system controls the public, the dictator controls the system. to control people's income, livelihood and the entire economy of a country takes tremendous amounts of power, power centered in the hands of a handful of individuals. do you actually trust any kind of authority with that kind of power? you shouldn't. it draws the most vile, corrupt people imaginable. people who wish to control the lives of others and enslave them to their will. freedom with responsibility is better than servitude without responsibility.
    All of this could be equally applied to countries with strong right-wing governments too. In fact, they almost play out the same way.
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  4. #34
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    All of this could be equally applied to countries with strong right-wing governments too. In fact, they almost play out the same way.
    how so?
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  5. #35
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    how so?
    Are you not familiar with fascism? with the current theocratic trends of the right on our own country?
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  6. #36
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Are you not familiar with fascism? with the current theocratic trends of the right on our own country?
    fascism is authoritarian/right; not libertarian/right. libertarian/right is the only solution which does not lead to despotism
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  7. #37
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    fascism is authoritarian/right; not libertarian/right. libertarian/right is the only solution which does not lead to despotism
    Perhaps, perhaps not, I don't know. I just think it's horribly naive to assume that despotism is indicative of socialistic or leftist thinking. Depositsm will occurred whenever you give enough shitheads with guns a lot of power, irrespective of their political affiliations.
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  8. #38
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Perhaps, perhaps not, I don't know. I just think it's horribly naive to assume that despotism is indicative of socialistic or leftist thinking. Depositsm will occurred whenever you give enough shitheads with guns a lot of power, irrespective of their political affiliations.
    precisely, that's what Libertarianism is. give as little "shitheads" power as possible and let people make their own decisions without stealing the fruits of their labor or telling them what they need to do for a living
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  9. #39
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    fascism is authoritarian/right; not libertarian/right. libertarian/right is the only solution which does not lead to despotism
    No.
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  10. #40
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah but what does "demonstrations by people against the banking system" mean or amount to?
    Hopefully, that people are at least getting wise to what's going on. (as opposed to people who think "social programs", "unions", etc are what's draining all the money.
    I've read and watched the latest coming out of the US fringes which resembles this picture and the "international bankers" is, unfortunately, either a synonym for Jews, that very old plank
    Yeah; I'm aware of that rhetoric (which tends to be a deflectionary tactic on the part of so-called "Aryans" who themselves are the ones vying for world domination). I did not getany sense of that in either the image, or the Inside Job movie, or the demonstrators.
    , or foreign bankers, european or chinese, it is not the banking system per se and in some ways I think it resembles the, equally disappointing but I think more factual, political statements from Europe that American banking has been responsible for the recent recession.
    It's multinational corporations in general, and the banks are just a big part of that.
    However the fiscal overlords are just the latest overlords and the wealthy do this, wealth management is their business, they dont have any other work to do and this used to be called class struggles, besides Aristotle and other real classical appraisals of struggles for status and power between potters and soldiers in ancient athens the only people who've paid any sort of conscious attention to this are socialists. So I cant accept the lousy socialism and fascism are wings on the same bird or different sides of the one coin or really just mean democrat/republic or right/left. That's simplifying and nonsensical.

    Although I fufilly understand how you reached that opinion, the best socialists are totally and utterly out of print, the ancient works of Marx and Engels are about as useful as Dickens, however books like GDH Cole's What Everyone Wants to Know About Money, or Credit and Savings or others which were meant to provide objective appraisals of banking power and also invite common people to take control, not simply by votes or delegating decisions to someone else but taking decisions themselves are all but vanished or in private collections gathering dust.
    It's the left/right in this system, as it is being practiced now, that I'm talking about as being tools of the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, I think you would say that despotic states on the left or right are the extremes of what it's criticizing. "Socialism" is not an inherently despotic political philosophy.
    Well, "despotism" is simply high authoritarianism, which is really a perpendicular dimension to left/right. Extreme left and right generally do veer into authoritarianism, however, because the "ideal" system ends up needing to have to be enforced.
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