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  1. #11
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I don't think that's it at all, Victor. I really don't. You must bear in mind that Jackie was a very very traditional and idealistic woman who was raised in a well-off environment. The 1960s in America was one of the most tumultous of the late 20th century. You had women wearing girdles, and other women burning their bras. You had Emily Post and Gloria Steinem. You had the hip/hippie version of the Beatles and the square Kingston Trio. The definition of a woman had never been more sharply contrasted since the days of suffrage. Jackie turned into a much different, more confident, more centered woman in the years after the death of JFK.

    And I'm not even a huge Jackie O fan. I simply think that has much more complicated themes attached to it. Time and place make a difference.
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  2. #12
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Complimentary Victor Translation:

    "I hate Americans who don't hate themselves for being American."

  3. #13
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile A Friend and Ally

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Complimentary Victor Translation:

    "I hate Americans who don't hate themselves for being American."
    Consider my situation, dear Qlip - Oz is invisible in the media of the USA. On the other hand we have three important treaties with the USA, and if we don't raise our voice, no one else will.

    On top of that we are swamped with the popular culture of the USA, we use the USA dollar as our reserve currency, and we are to be used as a military base for the next war in the South China Sea.

    In such a situation it is very easy to be overwhelmed by the largest economy in the world, and loose our heads. So to keep our heads we need to analyse and evaluate and integrate the USA into our thinking.

    I do understand you find such analysis to be threatening, but in reality you would be wise to appreciate such analysis from a friend and ally.

    And indeed we are your only friend and ally in the entire world who has suported you in all your major conflicts in the last hundred years.

  4. #14
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    Smile Sincere/Phoney and Amusing/Boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    I don't think that's it at all, Victor. I really don't. You must bear in mind that Jackie was a very very traditional and idealistic woman who was raised in a well-off environment. The 1960s in America was one of the most tumultous of the late 20th century. You had women wearing girdles, and other women burning their bras. You had Emily Post and Gloria Steinem. You had the hip/hippie version of the Beatles and the square Kingston Trio. The definition of a woman had never been more sharply contrasted since the days of suffrage. Jackie turned into a much different, more confident, more centered woman in the years after the death of JFK.

    And I'm not even a huge Jackie O fan. I simply think that has much more complicated themes attached to it. Time and place make a difference.
    Yes, quite right, Domino. And I was pointing out that the first lady saw the world, quite naturally through the American lens, just as I see the world through the Australian lens.

    And each lens has its own distinctions. And the American lens has the distinction between sincere and phoney. And so it was only natural for the first lady to call someone she didn't like, "phoney".

    Just as the Australian lens has the distinction between amusing and boring. And when I really don't like someone, I call them, "boring".

    Fortunately I am ineffably amused by Domino.

  5. #15
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    And I am "sincerely" pleased you find me so! :-D

    What does the Australian lens see?
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  6. #16
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    Smile The Baroque and the Gothic

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    And I am "sincerely" pleased you find me so! :-D

    What does the Australian lens see?
    We have a saying, "The Queen is not amused", and we democratise this into a national sensibility.

    However, even more important, we see that the USA was the first country to mandate universal literacy. So the USA is first and foremost a literate country. The USA sees the world through the eye of literacy, so sees the world from a point of view, and so the USA is one dimensional. So the USA can concentrate its resources into one goal and is immensely powerful.

    On the other hand Oz retains strong elements of the aural culture. For instance, our ear is attuned to class differences expressed in accent.

    Another way of putting it is that your culture is classical while mine is gothic.

    Yours is visual and proportional, while mine more aural and tactile and higgedly-piggedly.

    You are classical Rome and Greece, that is, Baroque, while we are the Gothic Germans.

  7. #17
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Consider my situation, dear Qlip - Oz is invisible in the media of the USA. On the other hand we have three important treaties with the USA, and if we don't raise our voice, no one else will.

    On top of that we are swamped with the popular culture of the USA, we use the USA dollar as our reserve currency, and we are to be used as a military base for the next war in the South China Sea.

    In such a situation it is very easy to be overwhelmed by the largest economy in the world, and loose our heads. So to keep our heads we need to analyse and evaluate and integrate the USA into our thinking.

    I do understand you find such analysis to be threatening, but in reality you would be wise to appreciate such analysis from a friend and ally.

    And indeed we are your only friend and ally in the entire world who has suported you in all your major conflicts in the last hundred years.
    I do see your point. The thing is, and probably much more offensive than your perception of what the U.S. thinks of Australia is that the average American doesn't really think of it at all. I don't believe this is an unusual attitude for any provincial oriented people, which exist almost in every country. But yeah, we are a modern day equivalent of the Holy Roman Empire, so we aren't almost every country.

    But, the fact is, I personally do not have a provincial attitude, and I take on a very complex view on many things, and I am also proud of being American. So, for the same reason that you ultimately need to stick up for your country, I have to stick up for myself. And I have to assume there are also other Americans like myself, neither fake, nor provincial, nor ashamed for being American, though we may not always approve of what America does.

  8. #18
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Actually the first lady said it in a recorded interview that has been kept secret until today. And the first lady had not only ugly things to say about Martin Luther King but a number of other famous people the first lady had the privilege to meet.

    The first lady had also ugly things to say about Charles De Gaulle amd Indira Ghandi. All recorded, and kept secret for obvious reasons, and only released today.
    So what? Why is she not allowed to dislike anyone?

    And, besides, the idea of the American Camelot is more loved than any of this.

  9. #19
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    So what? Why is she not allowed to dislike anyone?

    And, besides, the idea of the American Camelot is more loved than any of this.
    That would make JFK...Guinevere? LMAO.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    So what? Why is she not allowed to dislike anyone?

    And, besides, the idea of the American Camelot is more loved than any of this.
    My point was not to attack the first lady but say that she responded in a particularly American way to someone she disliked by calling them, "phoney".

    By contrast we would call someone we disliked, "boring", rather than, "phoney".

    And if we accept this difference, we can see other differences. For instance, Americans will call someone a "loser", while we will call them a "battler" or "down on their luck".

    And once we start to accept these differences, we can start to see we have different epistemologies, that is, we have different ways of seeing the world.

    And as we are about to see many more American soldiers on our streets, preparing to fight a war in the South China Seas, it is wise to make our cultural differences explicit, so we will work together more harmoniously.

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