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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Oh... Now you want to have a serious conversation and not just rant, make ridiculous presumptions and play the blame game?

    Sorry, I don't buy it.




    Wow you really have nothing of value to say.

  2. #242
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Wow you really have nothing of value to say.
    I have nothing of value to say to people who will not honestly listen and consider what I have to say.
    Last edited by Beorn; 09-19-2011 at 03:34 AM. Reason: Removed insult
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is exactly what I am saying, because it's the truth. And we spent far less on healthcare as a country (private and public sectors) than we do now. I'd like your thoughts as to why that was and what changed.
    I think that this may have something to do with the prevalent morality of the past, that people in small towns in the past (and you still see this in the American South) want(ed) to help one another. My neighbor in WV who saw me walking to work and the bus stop for school everyday owned his own small business and would give me a ride sometimes because he always saw me walking to do something productive. In CA my neighbor seemed shocked that I was even concerned about his cat.

    I think it's an attitude of cultural morality that has shifted toward consumerism and self-absorption, and that some people have confused social Christianity with social values of modern consumerism and self-absorption, as though these cultural values were all one - that's what I blame for the bizarre confusion of Republicans in screeching that women not have abortions, but that the children of those often impoverished or unwed mothers receive very little or no assistance. They've confused owning a plasma screen TV with being a "good Christian" due to cultural norms.

    I think that's why health care is in trouble, not because the gov't got involved.

    HOWEVER, if you can sincerely convince me otherwise, I'm all ears. TRULY. What I want is for more poor people to have jobs and earn money, and for more people to have health care (and also for certain environmental regulations to be respected for the good of all living creatures, namely human beings).

    If you have a working solution to that that does not involve government, you could convert me, because what I want are RESULTS not dogma.

  4. #244
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Wow, I just so happen to be watching meet the press. Mitch McConnell was asked what his thoughts on the audiences response at the debate and he totally sidestepped the question. How do you not have the balls to say people shouldn't cheer the sick and dying.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #245
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think that this may have something to do with the prevalent morality of the past, that people in small towns in the past (and you still see this in the American South) want(ed) to help one another. My neighbor in WV who saw me walking to work and the bus stop for school everyday owned his own small business and would give me a ride sometimes because he always saw me walking to do something productive. In CA my neighbor seemed shocked that I was even concerned about his cat.
    Many of these hospitals were in urban areas, though. I don't think it was a prevalent morality of the past, because I believe human nature doesn't change rapidly. Humans naturally want to aid one another when they feel some type of affinity with others. Here are some factors which seem to have played a part:

    1) Government- and AMA-mandated credentialing processes (licensing and tight regulations always reduce supply and increase costs);

    2) Many lower-middle-class people used to be employed in manufacturing and related industry, so they worked for gigantic corporations in union jobs with health benefits;

    3) Lower tax burdens for the majority of Americans coupled with less generous welfare benefits for poor created an atmosphere in which charity-minded Americans felt more of an obligation to lend a hand to the less well-off.


    I think it's an attitude of cultural morality that has shifted toward consumerism and self-absorption, and that some people have confused social Christianity with social values of modern consumerism and self-absorption, as though these cultural values were all one - that's what I blame for the bizarre confusion of Republicans in screeching that women not have abortions, but that the children of those often impoverished or unwed mothers receive very little or no assistance. They've confused owning a plasma screen TV with being a "good Christian" due to cultural norms.
    I've got news for you: self-interest, consumerism, religious hypocrisy, and apathy didn't show up on the scene in the past 50 years. These are some of the negative things about humans that have pretty much always been since the rise of civilization.


    I think that's why health care is in trouble, not because the gov't got involved.
    Seems a little amorphous to me.


    HOWEVER, if you can sincerely convince me otherwise, I'm all ears. TRULY. What I want is for more poor people to have jobs and earn money, and for more people to have health care (and also for certain environmental regulations to be respected for the good of all living creatures, namely human beings).

    If you have a working solution to that that does not involve government, you could convert me, because what I want are RESULTS not dogma.
    I will certainly try.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #246
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJgbc8ojYUg"]Milton Friedman on Medical Care [1/6] with Lecture and Q&A[/YOUTUBE]

  7. #247
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    @Marmie Dearest
    Regarding welfare; We have enacted larger and larger programs towards welfare, beginning with FDR's new deal and continuing through Lyndon Johnson's great society to the current day. The reason Lyndon Johnson called it the "Great Society" was because it was supposed to "fix" society. It didn't. Not one of the social programs that we have enacted at the state or the federal level has shrunk, and the number of people ON welfare has only grown. So.. we've been trying to fix the problem with more social programs.. which leads to more people on the dole.. which we try to fix by expanding the social programs..

    The welfare society we've created is self-perpetuating and destructive for everyone in it. So no, I don't think it should continue to exist. Have the government give you a hand up when you're down? Ok. I like the idea of the Government providing jobs and a livable wage (High enough to survive but low enough that you REALLY want a real job) until you can find something better.
    But the key point is, UNTIL YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING BETTER.

    Have the government take care of you for life because you've been an idiot and/or because you're lazy?

    Not so much.

    As to your point about the "inconsistency" with Republicans - it's because of the welfare baby. Getting knocked up started out as something accidental; so the idea was "help the kid out; don't punish the kid cause his parents are dumbasses."

    Nowadays it's a ticket to a welfare check, and discourages people from getting married and from trying to find a real job. Unwed mothers receive welfare checks and foodstamps - Married women, or women who are managing to get by by working hard, do not. In the words of Chris Rock.
    [Language advisory] "A black woman that got 2 kids, going to work every day, busting her ass, HATES A BITCH WITH 9 KIDS GETTING THE WELFARE. And it ain't just black people on welfare. White people on welfare too!
    So Republican's face a quandary. No, they do not support abortion. However they do not want to reward people for irresponsible choices, or for trying to game the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think that's why health care is in trouble, not because the gov't got involved.
    Unfortunately, the Gov. is one of the most inefficient organizations in existence. If the Gov. was a company it would have gone under LONG ago.

  8. #248
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well how much of a "Christian" nation America really is(especially nowadays) is open for debate, after all it is the only country to have a heresy named after it.
    As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
    Written by John Adams and passed unanimously by the Senate at the time.
    +10% Crit Chance

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Written by John Adams and passed unanimously by the Senate at the time.
    I've already addressed this issue before, and if anything it was to demonstrate that our dispute with the Barbary Pirates was not one of religion.

  10. #250
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    I could also mention Public Law 97-280 which officially acknowledges: "Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the constitution of the United States."

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