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  1. #181
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

    "American King James Version
    And now stays faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." ~ 1 Corinthians 13:13
    How can people charitable if the government forcefully takes money away from them?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #182
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    I would be of the mindset that Jesus would not support socialized heath care but expect his followers and the church to provide for those who needed it.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    - Matthew 34 - 40
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  3. #183
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes I think it philosophically opposes the very nature of free market capitalism and Nietszche and Ayn Rand and all of it, yes I absolutely do.
    That's not what I asked you exactly, but oh well I'll go with this. Sure, Christ's teachings are in many ways opposed to classical liberalism, however that doesn't follow that Christ's teachings are therefore compatible with socialised healthcare or a welfare state. The notion that they do is largely a product of 19th century social gospel movements(which gave us the whole "What would Jesus do?" shtick).

  4. #184
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    I would be of the mindset that Jesus would not support socialized heath care but expect his followers and the church to provide for those who needed it.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    - Matthew 34 - 40
    I think you have forgotten hezekiah chapter 12

    Then when the Samaritan saw the robbed and beaten man on the ground he went and stole money from the priest and levite who had ignored the hurt man. With that money he provided for the healthcare of the robbed and beaten man until he was well
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #185
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    I would be of the mindset that Jesus would not support socialized heath care but expect his followers and the church to provide for those who needed it.
    Bingo! Private welfare is one way to think about it. If the state needs to get involved, then at best it plays a secondary and mostly subsidizing role to more primary health care providers such as families, churches, local communities, etc.

  6. #186
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I think you have forgotten hezekiah chapter 12
    When I googled Hezekiah I got 2 Kings. So I looked in my NLT bible, tried to find the verse you are quoting and found nada. Could you please direct me to were I can find the full context of the passage?
    Last edited by ReadingRainbows; 09-18-2011 at 11:52 PM. Reason: correcting biblical translation
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  7. #187
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    When I googled Hezekiah I got 2 Kings. So I looked in my NLT bible, tried to find the verse you are quoting and found nada. Could you please direct me to were I can find the full context of the passage?

    It was a joke. I was changing the story of the good samaritan to fit social welfare to highlight the difference between what the bible actually teaches. Which is that charity comes from our own pockets not someone else's.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #188
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It was a joke. I was changing the story of the good samaritan to fit social welfare.
    sorry! I should have gotten that.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  9. #189
    Sniffles
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    Further addressing the issue, as well as touching the wider one of "socialism", is this from a Church Father:
    Quote Originally Posted by St. John Chrysostom
    "Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again.

    Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold from the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first—and then they will joyfully share their wealth."
    On Living Simply XLIII

    The bolded part especially addresses @Beefeater's point about how can people be geniunely charitable when the state comes and takes their money away.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's not what I asked you exactly, but oh well I'll go with this. Sure, Christ's teachings are in many ways opposed to classical liberalism, however that doesn't follow that Christ's teachings are therefore compatible with socialised healthcare or a welfare state. The notion that they do is largely a product of 19th century social gospel movements(which gave us the whole "What would Jesus do?" shtick).
    Yeah I'm pretty sure that the teachings of Jesus are opposed to the idiocy of Social Darwinism (which can't even be proven by science.)

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