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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Supposing you were the student, and you said that, I'd assume you were going to persist, and I'd just tell you to go to the library with the name Joseph Stiglitz.
    The Sponge: I hadn't realized that when it comes to political economy you subscribe to partisan hackery...

  2. #112
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ah, so you follow would follow up a non-sequitur response with a non-sequitur name dropping. At least you're consistent, Magic Non-Sequitur.

    FWIW, from Wikipedia:


    Hayek, FWIW, predicted the Great Depression:


    Whee! Battling economists! We're so nerdy!

    We're so nerdy, we have to write rap songs to compensate for our nerdy inferiority complex:
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc[/YOUTUBE]
    It's like a non-sequitur because I couldn't really be bothered to take all that on all at once. It makes more sense to redirect someone to the proper voice, doesn't it?

    As for the competing examples, that's rather juvenile. If you'd like to come to me with a criticism of Stiglitz's criticism, I'd be more interested, if I'm not already too tired of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The Sponge: I hadn't realized that when it comes to political economy you subscribe to partisan hackery...
    I'm sure you have equally choice words for every other economist you don't like. I'm not so sure you have an argument.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not so sure you have an argument.
    I have nothing to argue against: all you've offered is name-dropping and a non sequitur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm sure you have equally choice words for every other economist you don't like.
    My words weren't for Stiglitz -- I actually listen to Stiglitz, as I listen to many other economists.

    My words were for you and your feeble approach to this discussion.

  4. #114
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I have nothing to argue against: all you've offered is name-dropping and a non sequitur.

    My words weren't for Stiglitz -- I actually listen to Stiglitz, as I listen to many other economists.

    My words were for you and your feeble approach to this discussion.
    So show me some significant relation between the works of Stiglitz and Hayek. Why would I mention one in response to the other?

    I dropped a name because I have the awareness that someone is more likely to understand from his work than from my trying to explain it. I was referring to a hypothetical scenario as well, was I not?

    There was a comedic quality to me first response, but the meaning should have been obvious; There's no need to teach hypotheses that are wrong. Now of course one might address Herbert Spencer in a sociology course, but is that the same as teaching his work?

    Did I need to explain these things to you or are you wasting time?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So show me some significant relation between the works of Stiglitz and Hayek. Why would I mention one in response to the other?

    I dropped a name because I have the awareness that someone is more likely to understand from his work than from my trying to explain it. I was referring to a hypothetical scenario as well, was I not?

    There was a comedic quality to me first response, but the meaning should have been obvious; There's no need to teach hypotheses that are wrong. Now of course one might address Herbert Spencer in a sociology course, but is that the same as teaching his work?

    Did I need to explain these things to you or are you wasting time?
    I think you are wasting everyone's time by not addressing the arguments themselves, but simply name-dropping Joseph Stiglitz.

    The fact that Joseph Stiglitz wrote something in a book attacking Austrian economics is not surprising (as, politically, he is as in favor of government intervention as just about any economist in the world), nor does it mean that Austrian economics is flawed.

    What hypotheses are you even saying are incorrect? You haven't stated a single one...

    That central banks' manipulation of interest rates to prop up an ailing economy can end up leading to even worse downturns down the road? That central planning will lead to inferior economic results compared to free markets?

    Congratulations on having read Joseph Stiglitz, Sponge; every stoner douchebag I've ever known who went to UC Santa Cruz has.

    How bout you address the issues, rather than making blanket, non sequitur claims supported only by appeals to authority.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I have a sort of love hate relationship with those videos, I like the fact that they are trying to popularise some authors who are worth reading but to be honest its like south park, the only purpose is to make an establishment message cool.

    I'm waiting for the video which explains that contrary to neo-liberal raps there's not been an economy which hasnt been keynesian since before world war two, possible since just after the end of world war one, whether its been military keynesian or social spending keynesian and that there's not any examples of exclusively private wealth circulating economies which are also mass producing and mass consuming as opposed to aristocratic and niche market societies in history.
    I like the videos. Apparently they were designed for people like me...

  7. #117
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Does any idea of long-term, self-induced stability on the part of markets have legitimacy in a world where markets are subject to externalities?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #118
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's like a non-sequitur because I couldn't really be bothered to take all that on all at once. It makes more sense to redirect someone to the proper voice, doesn't it?
    In other words, you decided to pop into a discussion and say nothing.

    As for the competing examples, that's rather juvenile. If you'd like to come to me with a criticism of Stiglitz's criticism, I'd be more interested, if I'm not already too tired of this.
    His criticism is a straw man. His overall thesis is that there is no such thing as a perfect market, that there is no perfect information. That is, he asserts that [free marketers] believe that markets are perfect. That isn't the case. Those who favor free markets argue that free markets provide better information than those who would control the markets.

    The information as provided by free markets often sucks. The information as provided by government bureaucrats always sucks. The reason that pro-economic-planning arguments gain any traction is precisely because markets don't behave 100% predictably. Then central planners try to make it predictable, and fail spectacularly. Ironically, the central planning failure is far more likely than the failure it hopes to prevent.

    The argument for free markets is rather analogous to Churchill's argument for democracy:
    Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
    Moreover, he is criticizing free markets on the basis of neoclassical theory. Neoclassical theory necessarily posits free markets and other similarly idealized situations, otherwise one cannot do the math. The Austrian school posits that there is no math to do: the math is nonsense, the imperfections that Stiglitz notes are posited a priori by Hayek et al. Thus, ironically, he makes the same points that Hayek and Von Mises do, but then uses those points to make arguments that Hayek and Von Mises would never make.

    I'm sure you have equally choice words for every other economist you don't like. I'm not so sure you have an argument.
    Note that you're trying to meta-argue: argue without actually providing an argument of your own, even as you hypocritically accuse others of not having arguments of their own. Rather than casting aspersions and impugning motives, you could share your point of view and join the debate. It's actually rather fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Does any idea of long-term, self-induced stability on the part of markets have legitimacy in a world where markets are subject to externalities?
    And rather than ask vague questions based on vague generalities and unspecified assumptions, you could make an argument for your point of view.

  9. #119
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    the people that cheered...are they not the same people
    who fabricated and then disseminated the "facts" of
    "death panels" and their attendant horrors?

    are they not the same people who valued the
    "sanctity of life" so much that they fought to
    keep a vegetable or a person on a respirator
    in florida?

    oh i love us tv shows.

    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Does any idea of long-term, self-induced stability on the part of markets have legitimacy in a world where markets are subject to externalities?
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    I see why you haven't gotten into the specifics...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In other words, you decided to pop into a discussion and say nothing.
    That's sure what it's looking like...

    To be honest, I was kinda shocked, cuz usually, while I may disagree with his viewpoint, I do find the Sponge to be pretty reasonable.

    He really threw that out the window on this try, though... something wrong, Sponge? Feeling stressed out?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    His criticism is a straw man.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The argument for free markets is rather analogous to Churchill's argument for democracy:
    Exactly.

    Was trying to explain this to Lark a week or two ago in another anti-libertarian thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Moreover, he is criticizing free markets on the basis of neoclassical theory. Neoclassical theory necessarily posits free markets and other similarly idealized situations, otherwise one cannot do the math. The Austrian school posits that there is no math to do: the math is nonsense, the imperfections that Stiglitz notes are posited a priori by Hayek et al. Thus, ironically, he makes the same points that Hayek and Von Mises do, but then uses those points to make arguments that Hayek and Von Mises would never make.
    Which is why I always say that, whenever I listen to Stiglitz and Krugman (Krugman even more so), I totally agree with them on about half of what they're saying, and then totally disagree on the other half.

    Uumlau: I have to say, you've got a pretty solid handle on your economics, especially for someone who (to the best of my knowledge) didn't study and doesn't work in a directly applicable or related field.

    I hope to one day be able to discuss relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory as effectively as you do political economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Note that you're trying to meta-argue: argue without actually providing an argument of your own, even as you hypocritically accuse others of not having arguments of their own. Rather than casting aspersions and impugning motives, you could share your point of view and join the debate. It's actually rather fun.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And rather than ask vague questions based on vague generalities and unspecified assumptions, you could make an argument for your point of view.
    +1

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