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  1. #101
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes, I've often described communism and objectivism (libertarians usually are pretty similar to objectivists) as two sides of the same coin. They both ignore human behavior for unrealistic ideal societies.

    What's interesting is the communists (as I call Marxist-socialists) have achieved far more at actually attempting their vision of society. The libertarian/objectivists haven't even come close.
    Whatever else the sins of the Marxists at least back in the old days they were pretty organized. The problem with libertarian/objectivists is they are so busy being "individuals" that they can't organize a two car funeral.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  2. #102
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    Whatever else the sins of the Marxists at least back in the old days they were pretty organized. The problem with libertarian/objectivists is they are so busy being "individuals" that they can't organize a two car funeral.
    It's the nonaggression axiom at work. Libertarians wouldn't force people to go along with them, but prefer educating and proselytizing to direct action. Objectivists have a personal philosophy that necessarily limits the number of people with whom they will work (and makes them jerks, lots of times). Marxists are generally OK with using vicious force to impose their ideology.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    Whatever else the sins of the Marxists at least back in the old days they were pretty organized. The problem with libertarian/objectivists is they are so busy being "individuals" that they can't organize a two car funeral.
    Yes, you'd think, because Marxism is so based on "we" and libertarian objectivists are so based on "I."

    However, I don't think this keeps the most vicious of them from organizing themselves. Unfortunately it seems the libertarians who actually have the least harmful beliefs are the least likely to accomplish anything in terms of changing anything.

  4. #104
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Just FTR in my experience it's NOT true that colleges only teach Keynesian economics.
    Such was never asserted. It's not as if they teach Hayek. The Austrian school doesn't subscribe to the notion in neoclassical economics that one can mathematically model an economy.

    Mmhmh.
    Yep.

    Actually it's been shown that both capital and labor share a tendency towards decreasing marginal returns i.e. the productivity of capital and labor is inverse-U shaped.
    I presume that you are discussing the law of diminishing marginal returns, where, all else being equal, increasing one input of production will eventually cause the marginal product to decline.

    Except, as you mention,
    What does have a strictly positive (but exogenous) effect on growth is technological change
    all else is not equal
    , which - at the moment - hasn't been shown as being clearly connected to either capital or labor accumulation.
    because the dynamic nature of a human economy doesn't fit in simplistic neoclassical economic models. The math forces one to compare apples to apples, and then one wonders why it doesn't account for the new orange product line. "Exogenous" merely means the model doesn't take it into account, and "hasn't been shown as being clearly connected" means "we can't figure out how to model it."

    (I'm reminded at the moment of the joke about the physicist hired to solve a farmer's problems. After studying the farm for a long while, the physicist finally gives his presentation to the farmer: "Consider a spherical cow ...")

    Yes, eventually the marginal rate of return on making the same old things with the same old processes declines, but the economy - and certainly the modern economy since the era of Adam Smith - has never really worked that way. There are always new things, there are always new processes, there are always new ideas, there are always new kinds of capital. Companies don't just invest in more capital, they invest in better capital.

    The purpose of capital has always been to leverage labor, enabling people to do more than before. That is to say, investment in capital is always an investment in technology. I'm surprised that you would suggest that technological change isn't "clearly connected" to capital. It's intrinsic: entire sectors of the economy are devoted to investing in technological change. If technological change is exogenous to the models, then the models mean nothing. Perhaps the Austrian school is correct.

    And that, @ygolo, is why Hayek doesn't get taught in the classroom.

  5. #105
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    I remember one day in college, an extremely bright kid in my econ 103 (macro) class interrupting the professor (a totally Keynesian) in the middle of the class and saying, "Why don't you ever teach Austrian economics?"

    If I recall correctly, the professor had no reply.

    He was sorta just dumfounded.

    It was very odd.

  6. #106
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I remember one day in college, an extremely bright kid in my econ 103 (macro) class interrupting the professor (a totally Keynesian) in the middle of the class and saying, "Why don't you ever teach Austrian economics?"

    If I recall correctly, the professor had no reply.

    He was sorta just dumfounded.

    It was very odd.
    You can't teach what you haven't learned yourself.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #107
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I remember one day in college, an extremely bright kid in my econ 103 (macro) class interrupting the professor (a totally Keynesian) in the middle of the class and saying, "Why don't you ever teach Austrian economics?"

    If I recall correctly, the professor had no reply.

    He was sorta just dumfounded.

    It was very odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You can't teach what you haven't learned yourself.
    The same reason the anthro professors aren't teaching creationism.

    That would have been my response.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The same reason the anthro professors aren't teaching creationism.

    That would have been my response.
    And it would've been dumb.

  9. #109
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And it would've been dumb.
    Supposing you were the student, and you said that, I'd assume you were going to persist, and I'd just tell you to go to the library with the name Joseph Stiglitz.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #110
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Supposing you were the student, and you said that, I'd assume you were going to persist, and I'd just tell you to go to the library with the name Joseph Stiglitz.
    Ah, so you follow would follow up a non-sequitur response with a non-sequitur name dropping. At least you're consistent, Magic Non-Sequitur.

    FWIW, from Wikipedia:
    He co-authored a paper titled "Implications of the New Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Risk-Based Capital Standard" with Peter Orszag in 2002 in which they concluded "on the basis of historical experience, the risk to the government from a potential default on GSE debt is effectively zero."
    Hayek, FWIW, predicted the Great Depression:
    Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek warned of a major economic crisis before the Great Depression. Hayek made his prediction of a coming business crisis in February 1929. He warned that a financial crisis was an unavoidable consequence of reckless monetary expansion.
    Whee! Battling economists! We're so nerdy!

    We're so nerdy, we have to write rap songs to compensate for our nerdy inferiority complex:
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc[/YOUTUBE]
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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