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  1. #31
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Seldom reliable... I would counter that they have been using it since the beginning of human history for a reason. More importantly, it's not a commonly used tool.
    Mercury was at one time highly prescribed as a medicine. I dont see many cancer patients chugging down thermometers.

    The kind of individuals we use torture on have grown up versed in the language of violence. Such people aren't likely to ever let us in on what they know due to sleep deprivation, isolation or whatever other punishments liberal minds can come up with.
    Wat. So because these people have been hardened by violence, only the violence which they have become accustomed to can make them talk? Why do you use the word "punishment", the point isnt to torture people because they deserve it but to extract information. And it wasnt "liberal minds" that came up with those punishments, they were developed and perfected by years of CIA research. Oh but clearly you know more about making people talk than the CIA, youve seen "Unthinkable".

    You also assume that the people being tortured are these folks who have been "hardened by war" or whatever bullshit. Most of the high ranking members of Al Qaeda, the ones who actually have useful information, come from rather cushy backgrounds. Bin Laden was the son of a fucking Oil Company.

    The kind of people who are likely to to tell us anything we want to make the torture stop, are exactly the kind of people we don't need to be torturing. For softer individuals, softer methods can and do work. And in these instances, we use these methods.
    HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I dont think you understand, that demographic is EVERYONE. THAT IS WHY IT DOESNT WORK. And how do we distinguish between "soft" and "hard" individuals? I just gave you two examples of completely innocent men who were tortured, ONE OF THEM WORKED A FUCKING DESK JOB. He sure was hardened by the language of violence huh?

    I couldn't give one flying fuck what it does to my reputation. 10 times out of 10 American lives (be they soldier or civilian) outweigh any cares I might have about my reputation.
    You have yet to give an example of a case where torture produced valuable information. Even if it did you would have to search through all the false information it produced to find the truth.
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  2. #32
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I could care less whether it works or not. To me the cost of having trained torturers as American citizens far outweighs any risk of terrorist attack. It's hard enough for vets who never even fire a gun to assimilate back into American culture what the hell are we going to do with people trained to manipulate through pain? More importantly how wrong is it to turn our own citizens into monsters?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #33
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The kind of individuals we use torture on have grown up versed in the language of violence.
    I just love your cowboy speak.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I would stake my life on the presumption that it does. It's not a fact I've chosen to overlook, it's a fact that isn't a fact.
    …the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.
    ^The above quote is from the US ARMY TRAINING MANUAL. Once again, you clearly know better than the CIA and the US Army on how to make people talk.

    Classification is a hell of a thing.

    Who in their right mind given the sympathies of the international community would allow information of a successful torture to be publicly documented?
    If they have received word of a plot and successfully foiled it then there is no reason not to state that torture helped. The fact that no such cases have come forward signifies that NOT A SINGLE PLOT HAS BEEN FOILED WITH USE OF TORTURE.
    I would propose that the actor's incentive to keep such information secret would preclude and such information from seeing the light of day.
    Unless that info had already served its purpose, at which point there is no negative consequences for releasing info. When terror plots are foiled we usually are told.
    It's just the opposite for failed torture, that is the kind of information people such as yourselves would die to get their hands all over the world.

    Moreover in response to the two huffington post articles, I would say that no system is perfect. To require that a system be perfect would preclude it's very existence.
    Its not that its imperfect, its that it is horribly flawed. Keep in mind neither of those people would have ever been tortured had they received a TRIAL. Because they did not bother to find out if the people they were torturing were actually terrorists the ended up with false information that muddies any good information they might have got. And thats assume that they GOT any good information.

    Notice whenever a terror plot is foiled they usually say "an undercover operative uncovered..." or "FBI agents intercepted a phone call between..." Why do you never hear "Authorities extracted information from prisoners using torture..."?

    Is it perhaps because not a single terrorist threat has been stopped by torture? If that were the case then it would indicate that whatever information the accused terrorists have isnt so important that it cant at least wait for a proper trail.

    but I would return to that fact that Gitmo still exists and we have continued business as usual to show that by and large we have very good reasons for doing what we do.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, because if you were in charge, and push came to shove, I bet you would wish you hadn't
    Let me get this straight. Because the government is still operating Gitmo that must mean its a good thing! You see of course its a good idea, because the government is doing it!

    I understand that very occasionally, things don't go as planned,
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-bay-innocent/

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7092435.ece

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0425/guantanamo.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uantanamo.html

    http://www.nineoclock.ro/us-knew-150...were-innocent/

    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
    IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT MUST BE GOOD.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Torture has been proven to work in several cases. If anything, we need to torture more people to extract information critical to the success of the War on Terror. I don't see what the fuss is about. These people aren't innocent children, they're adults who chose to murder and subvert the authority of the US and, less importantly, the UN. I don't feel sorry for them.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  6. #36
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Torture has been proven to work in several cases.
    Interesting conjecture. Do you have a source?

    If anything, we need to torture more people to extract information critical to the success of the War on Terror. I don't see what the fuss is about.
    http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...on/blart-3.htm

    These people aren't innocent
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-bay-innocent/

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7092435.ece

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0425/guantanamo.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uantanamo.html

    http://www.nineoclock.ro/us-knew-150...were-innocent/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-w..._b_305227.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_212419.html

    they're adults who chose to murder and subvert the authority of the US and, less importantly, the UN. I don't feel sorry for them.
    Interesting statement there. Its so funny that you point that out along side the murder, its not just he murder but the SUBVERSION.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Do you have any more of those NWO brainwashing links? You're just another Illuminati puppet....Geneva Convention is part of the plan to keep the USA from realizing it's full potential, I'm going to guess that you're European, white and you consider televised propaganda the "news". It's not even worth arguing with you about. I would put people like you on the list of approved torture subjects.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #38
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Do you have any more of those NWO brainwashing links? You're just another Illuminati puppet....Geneva Convention is part of the plan to keep the USA from realizing it's full potential, I'm going to guess that you're European, white and you consider televised propaganda the "news". It's not even worth arguing with you about. I would put people like you on the list of approved torture subjects.
    What kind of monster are you? "You don't agree with me, hence you should be tortured" is exactly the kind of misguided, autocratic, fear-driven, knee-jerk sociopathic rhetoric that drives the very sorts of actions you purport to prevent.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    What kind of monster are you? "You don't agree with me, hence you should be tortured" is exactly the kind of misguided, autocratic, fear-driven, knee-jerk sociopathic rhetoric that drives the very sorts of actions you purport to prevent.
    Obviously he's a sleeper Ayrab terrorist!


    Does anyone have an instance of where torture helped?

    You don't torture people and expect the enemy to not do the same. I stand with Sen. John McCain:

    “I don’t mourn the loss of any terrorist’s life. What I do mourn is what we lose when, by official policy or official neglect, we confuse or encourage those who fight this war for us to forget that best sense of ourselves,” McCain wrote. “Through the violence, chaos and heartache of war, through deprivation and cruelty and loss, we are always Americans, and different, stronger and better than those who would destroy us.”

    “The trail to bin Laden did not begin with a disclosure from Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times,” McCain said. Intelligence officials first learned the nickname of bin Laden’s courier –Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti — “from a detainee held in another country, who we believe was not tortured.” And, he added, “None of the three detainees who were waterboarded provided Abu Ahmed’s real name, his whereabouts or an accurate description of his role in Al Qaeda.”

  10. #40
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    What kind of monster are you? "You don't agree with me, hence you should be tortured" is exactly the kind of misguided, autocratic, fear-driven, knee-jerk sociopathic rhetoric that drives the very sorts of actions you purport to prevent.
    Typical liberal.... As soon as they begin losing the argument they resort to name-calling. Why don't you come at me with facts and logic instead of acting like a 12 year old girl who lost her ipad and then wants to blame me for it, even though I was sitting across from her on the bus and the guy next to her was obviously more homeless looking than I am?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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