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  1. #21
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Obama is unfortunately not a drop of FDR.
    And I am not claiming he is one .

    Though, at this time, the government is too fractured.

    If it was to keep the government from failing at the hands of a few, Obama has done his job.
    If it was to bring the people a more coherent future, Obama has not done his job.

    I would likely say, any president right now that has a chance to be president in 2012 won't likely fill that role, to bring America in a coherent future, either.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Torture is necessary in certain circumstances. (good thread topic if you ask me)

    Anyone else here ever seen Unthinkable?
    BRO TIP: Real life isnt a movie. Many of the people we tortured we later let go, the reason being they were actually innocent. If we had bothered with trials we could have avoided such fiascos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Different times. Bush led us through the aftermath of one of the worst terrorist attacks in American history.
    I mean on issues of policy.

    Guess we'll never know.
    Not really. No 9/11 attacks no living in constant fear.

    It wasn't in vain. Critical information was obtained from Al Qaeda leaders with that; including, the 9/11 mastermind himself (Mohammed). Necessary business.
    What critical information? Source?

    Under the circumstances, I trust it was a legitimate move. (This goes along with my previous point.)
    All in all, Bush rebuilt presidential authority and kept Americans safe for over 7-years during his tenure with these actions
    You know I have a rock that keeps away tigers. Oh, and if by "rebuild presidential authority" you mean "completely over extend the powers of the presidency" then yes I agree.
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  3. #23
    figsfiggyfigs
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    I overheard my mother and father saying : " That Obama is such a lying dirt bag"

    They said the same thing about George Bush when he was president.

    Based on their opinions, they're both crappy in their own special way. An opinion I agree with.

  4. #24
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Obama has a hotter wife than Bush, at least he gets this point.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  5. #25
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Obama has a hotter wife than Bush, at least he gets this point.
    Bah, you have no appreciation of a good GILF.
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  6. #26
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    BRO TIP: Real life isnt a movie. Many of the people we tortured we later let go, the reason being they were actually innocent. If we had bothered with trials we could have avoided such fiascos.
    Your right real life isn't a movie.

    Trials take time, and the information these guys have that we want is almost always of a time sensitive nature.

    Now present me with credible evidence of an innocent we've tortured.

    You should lurk more.

    P.S. - you've been here for like 5 minutes don't presume to bro me. You haven't earned the privilege.

  7. #27
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Torture is necessary in certain circumstances. (good thread topic if you ask me)
    Ridiculous. It's well known that information obtained via torture is seldom reliable. You simply get people to say what they think you want to hear -- because the need to get the torture to *stop* outweighs other considerations. And that's not even getting into the question of what it does to your reputation in the world (making *more* enemies isn't the answer to ending a conflict), and *that* isn't even getting into the moral repugnance of such actions.

    I'll also note that you asked for credible evidence of the innocence of someone "we" have tortured. Guess what. Knowing that you're an American (I am too), I can state with certainty that innocence doesn't have to be proven here (at least if the authorities actually follow the law). I don't think any of us want to live in a world where the authorities can grab you, torture a confession out of you, and then say "well, that was warranted because nobody's conclusively proven that he's innocent." Or do you?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #28
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Torture is necessary in certain circumstances. (good thread topic if you ask me)

    Anyone else here ever seen Unthinkable?
    How's using movies as support for your beliefs working out for you?

    ^what Kelric said. In your hunger for Samuel Jackson's johnson you completely overlooked the fact that torture does, in fact, not work. Or maybe it's a fact you've chosen to overlook in order to not feel bad about being in favour of inhumane actions as a result of your drive for revenge. Gorilla wants banana?

  9. #29
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Your right real life isn't a movie.

    Trials take time, and the information these guys have that we want is almost always of a time sensitive nature.

    Now present me with credible evidence of an innocent we've tortured.

    You should lurk more.

    P.S. - you've been here for like 5 minutes don't presume to bro me. You haven't earned the privilege.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-w..._b_305227.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_212419.html

    Also note that both of the men gave false confessions under the torture. Now give me credible evidence that we have received ANY useful information from torture.

    Furthermore, you are still neglecting the fact that torture is against international law. International laws that WE wrote.
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  10. #30
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    Ridiculous. It's well known that information obtained via torture is seldom reliable. You simply get people to say what they think you want to hear -- because the need to get the torture to *stop* outweighs other considerations. And that's not even getting into the question of what it does to your reputation in the world (making *more* enemies isn't the answer to ending a conflict), and *that* isn't even getting into the moral repugnance of such actions.

    I'll also note that you asked for credible evidence of the innocence of someone "we" have tortured. Guess what. Knowing that you're an American (I am too), I can state with certainty that innocence doesn't have to be proven here (at least if the authorities actually follow the law). I don't think any of us want to live in a world where the authorities can grab you, torture a confession out of you, and then say "well, that was warranted because nobody's conclusively proven that he's innocent." Or do you?
    Seldom reliable... I would counter that they have been using it since the beginning of human history for a reason. More importantly, it's not a commonly used tool.

    The kind of individuals we use torture on have grown up versed in the language of violence. Such people aren't likely to ever let us in on what they know due to sleep deprivation, isolation or whatever other punishments liberal minds can come up with.

    The kind of people who are likely to to tell us anything we want to make the torture stop, are exactly the kind of people we don't need to be torturing. For softer individuals, softer methods can and do work. And in these instances, we use these methods.

    I couldn't give one flying fuck what it does to my reputation. 10 times out of 10 American lives (be they soldier or civilian) outweigh any cares I might have about my reputation.

    With your second paragraph you did a real good job of sidestepping the question.

    The closest we've gotten is probably Hamdi v. Rumsfeld.

    The slope you used in the second half of that paragraph is quite slippery. Describing something out of V for Vendetta doesn't really apply to our circumstance now does it... We don't live in fear of black vans or jackbooted thugs. Finally I would say that in order to authorize torture, the preponderance of the evidence would have to pretty damn high, especially when such actions are as frowned upon as they are in the international community.

    It would seem as if we live in two worlds, one were the best intentions are enough, charity always goes to those intended, and all the darkest aspects of human nature fail to win the day. Then there is the real world, where corruption often embezzles funds meant for the less fortunate, good intentions get you no where, and evil as often as good wins in the end.

    If hard methods weren't necessary, why in the world would Obama decide to keep Gitmo open against his own promise?

    How's using movies as support for your beliefs working out for you?
    Just fine in this instance.

    ^what Kelric said. In your hunger for Samuel Jackson's johnson you completely overlooked the fact that torture does, in fact, not work. Or maybe it's a fact you've chosen to overlook in order to not feel bad about being in favour of inhumane actions as a result of your drive for revenge. Gorilla wants banana?
    I would stake my life on the presumption that it does. It's not a fact I've chosen to overlook, it's a fact that isn't a fact.

    Also note that both of the men gave false confessions under the torture. Now give me credible evidence that we have received ANY useful information from torture.
    Classification is a hell of a thing.

    Who in their right mind given the sympathies of the international community would allow information of a successful torture to be publicly documented?

    I would propose that the actor's incentive to keep such information secret would preclude and such information from seeing the light of day.

    It's just the opposite for failed torture, that is the kind of information people such as yourselves would die to get their hands all over the world.

    Moreover in response to the two huffington post articles, I would say that no system is perfect. To require that a system be perfect would preclude it's very existence.

    I understand that very occasionally, things don't go as planned, but I would return to that fact that Gitmo still exists and we have continued business as usual to show that by and large we have very good reasons for doing what we do.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, because if you were in charge, and push came to shove, I bet you would wish you hadn't

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