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  1. #41
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Democrats don't disappoint their base to appease the opposition, they disappoint their base to win the support of moderates and swing voters.
    Two things:

    1) If that's true, that's idiotic, because it doesn't work that way. You don't win moderates by posturing as an extremely moderate person. Very few people have an ideological commitment to centrism. If you try to stand in the middle on everything, that's just false compromise, and you look inert and incompetent. If you bounce back and forth across the aisles, you look unplanned and disingenuous. In reality, moderates are either people guided by only one or two issues, or people who just feel like they have no idea what's going on. The best way to win them is to look like you have a plan, and try to quickly bring results that address the common issues. This requires the exact opposite of what the Democrats have been doing for some time.


    2) In some cases it definitely is appeasement, spurred by the mechanics of government. People may want one thing, but the Democrats still have to get through Republican lawmakers. Different people are more or less easily intimidated by such political opposition in government (in recent decades, Democrats are typically very easily intimidated). The majority of Americans care more about jobs than the deficit. The majority of Americans want higher taxes on the rich. If Democrats wanted to win moderate and swing voters, they could press those things. They don't because they are afraid of Republican office holders who don't represent moderates and swing voters in that respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We already have... twice.
    From The Washington Post:
    House GOP revs up a repeal, reduce and rein-in agenda for the fall
    I'll be picky here. It's a proposal, but is it a plan? I don't usually think of a list of negations as a plan. Let's not tax, and let's not spend, and let's not regulate, etc... and somehow everything is gonna straighten itself out? If you had a wound that became obviously infected, and I propose that you not try to pro-actively treat it and should just recline in your home all day and night, is that a plan? If yes, then I can see how Republicans have a plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I don't know where you got that I think I'm smarter than anyone from what I said.
    What was your point in making that assertion/observation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    P.S. Had Hillary Clinton won, she wouldn't have compromised this much, either.
    I don't believe that. When Bill Clinton was president, he was a smooth talking compromiser in many regards, and though Hillary would be different, I doubt she'd be that different. Add to that the fact that during campaigns Hillary consistently came across like she was trying harder to sound moderate or even right-wing than the other candidates, and it doesn't shape up too well.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Oh well, it's been pretty nice getting to sit back and let you defeat yourselves.

    *reclines in lawn chair with a beer*
    I've always disliked how your attitude toward this is akin to a football fan.
    Do you have any gravitas, or are the livelihoods of hundreds of millions of people an afterthought?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #42
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    Well of course Hillary Clinton has some diplomacy skills or she wouldn't be the secretary-of-state. I think Clinton did an excellent job as a real moderate Democrat. Clinton was a much stronger president than Obama who has been slip-slidin' all over the place with his wishy-washy bullshit. Most of the Democrats I know are pretty pissed off about it.

    Hillary Clinton wouldn't have made so many compromises on health care or the environment. I do not believe that.

    The war stuff was just sensible, though. I'm sorry but I agree that we couldn't just pull out suddenly, it just wouldn't be smart.

    HOWEVER, let me say this: I like how Obama improved our relationship with the world and also that he pushed through the recovery act and stimulus plan. Too bad he didn't keep a better eye on some of these companies he helped though to oversee just what they did with that money. That's pretty fucking shitty.

  3. #43
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    Magic...

    Do you actually think about what you say before you say it, or is your brain just like one of those poems where you throw the magnetic words at the refrigerator and see what comes up.

  4. #44
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Magic...

    Do you actually think about what you say before you say it
    Yes.

    Now provide me a more substantial response.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #45
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    @Magic - Since you've already decided to pass judgment upon what I wrote, I think you owe me this. Take a moment to reflect upon my words, and think to yourself what beliefs you could hold which might cause you to say what I said. Try to give me the benefit of your doubts. You assume that I must think myself mentally superior to say such a thing, but you miss the obvious. I know it is ambiguous, but I'm sure you could see my intentions and motivation if you tried.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #46
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    I'll be picky here. It's a proposal, but is it a plan? I don't usually think of a list of negations as a plan. Let's not tax, and let's not spend, and let's not regulate, etc... and somehow everything is gonna straighten itself out? If you had a wound that became obviously infected, and I propose that you not try to pro-actively treat it and should just recline in your home all day and night, is that a plan? If yes, then I can see how Republicans have a plan.
    Grasping at straws I see...

    A proposal is a plan.

    It's a list of things you would like to accomplish in the future.

    I don't really know how to explain this any simpler.

    Your analogy and entire argument is a more than a wee bit facile.

    For lack of knowledge you fail to understand the nuances and complexities of the issue.

    I've always disliked how your attitude toward this is akin to a football fan.
    Do you have any gravitas, or are the livelihoods of hundreds of millions of people an afterthought?
    And I've always disliked everything about you. Your tendency to fail to grasp the realistic implications of your arguments, your mincing and retreating manner, the blinders your cling to so fervently.... (I could go on for days, but I wont)

    The gentleman I work for, who happens to be openly gay, has been a chief of staff for several hill offices including Republican house whip Kevin McCarthy (CA-22), not to mention the myriad of other positions he's had on the hill. This man has literally forgotten more about politics than you guys can ever hope to know.

    You know what he told me when I asked him why he kept coming back to politics? He said "It's like a sport to me... you have teams, red and blue, you recruit players for different positions, you have quarters (or innings or whatever you want to call them), and you have fans of varying levels of interest."

    Are you actually implying that I don't care how things turn out.

    If so shame on you.

    I may oppose most liberal trains of thought.

    But I know in the bottom of my heart they are trying to fight for what they think is best for the country.

    And I find that commendable regardless if I disagree with how they aim to get there.

    I might disagree with liberals generally, but I know (well at least here in DC) that they mean us no harm, and are merely trying to do the best they can for the country.

    That's what (you) people don't get, they can't understand that the opposition is just trying to do the same thing they are, just going about it by different means.

    You really believe that we are the "other", the "enemy", that we hate the environment, minorities, and poor people, and for that misguided belief I pity you in your small mindedness.

    I hope that one day you can have a well thought out discussion about politics, or at least be able to sit at the grownups table without polluting the discussion, but I suspect that that will never happen.

    Good day sir.
    Last edited by DiscoBiscuit; 09-05-2011 at 02:31 PM.

  7. #47
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    wow
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  8. #48
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well of course Hillary Clinton has some diplomacy skills or she wouldn't be the secretary-of-state. I think Clinton did an excellent job as a real moderate Democrat. Clinton was a much stronger president than Obama who has been slip-slidin' all over the place with his wishy-washy bullshit. Most of the Democrats I know are pretty pissed off about it.

    Hillary Clinton wouldn't have made so many compromises on health care or the environment. I do not believe that.

    The war stuff was just sensible, though. I'm sorry but I agree that we couldn't just pull out suddenly, it just wouldn't be smart.

    HOWEVER, let me say this: I like how Obama improved our relationship with the world and also that he pushed through the recovery act and stimulus plan. Too bad he didn't keep a better eye on some of these companies he helped though to oversee just what they did with that money. That's pretty fucking shitty.
    I think a big difference here is that Clinton really had it way easier than Obama does. My suspicion, though difficult to prove, is that under pressure like this, Bill Clinton (and perhaps Hillary then) would compromise more than Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Grasping at straws I see...

    A proposal is a plan.

    It's a list of things you would like to accomplish in the future.

    I don't really know how to explain this any simpler.
    You don't need to. You said a proposal is a plan. Reclining in the chair and ignoring your wound is a plan. Got it.

    So yes, your definition Republicans have given us a plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Your analogy and entire argument is a more than a wee bit facile.
    Great. Do you actually see the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    For lack of knowledge you fail to understand the nuances and complexities of the issue.
    And you're a big stupid-head!
    Did I get that right? Is that how this is supposed to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And I've always disliked everything about you. Your frail willowy appearance, your tendency to fail to grasp the realistic implications of your arguments, your thin lanky hair, your mincing and retreating manner, the blinders your cling to so fervently.... (I could go on for days, but I wont)
    Hmm. Well the intellectual attacks are really very inaccurate. The ones about my appearance are funny. I think you're trying to attack me, but you probably undermine yourself with talk of this nature. Commentary like this makes me question your position to educate me about proper debate conduct.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The gentleman I work for, who happens to be openly gay, has been a chief of staff for several hill offices including Republican house whip Kevin McCarthy (CA-22), not to mention the myriad of other positions he's had on the hill. This man has literally forgotten more about politics than you guys can ever hope to know.
    Perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You know what he told me when I asked him why he kept coming back to politics? He said "It's like a sport to me... you have teams, red and blue, you recruit players for different positions, you have quarters (or innings or whatever you want to call them), and you have fans of varying levels of interest."
    Maybe it's good to have anything that gets people participating in politics, but I really don't think that's a very good reason. I think that promotes the wrong approach to politics. I think it leads people in the direction of pulling a maneuver to have red beat blue even if it hurts millions of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Are you actually implying that I don't care how things turn out.

    If so shame on you.
    It was a possibility.
    Whatever your intentions are, you portray yourself in a manner that looks more competitive than constructive.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I may oppose most liberal trains of thought.

    But I know in the bottom of my heart they are trying to fight for what they think is best for the country.

    And I find that commendable regardless if I disagree with how they aim to get there.

    I might disagree with liberals generally, but I know (well at least here in DC) that they mean us no harm, and are merely trying to do the best they can for the country.
    Okay, but why are you keeping it at the bottom of your heart? Bring it out a bit.

    And for clarity, I'm not trying to be like Obama here and pretend I'm some friendly peace-broker. I've said some very harsh things about political opponents, the tea party contingency in particular. But in doing so I tried to keep my point on how dangerous I thought their policies would be, and how malignant I find their attitude. That's a good reason. It comes back to the point that I just don't think the thrill of sport is a good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    That's what (you) people don't get, they can't understand that the opposition is just trying to do the same thing they are, just going about it by different means.
    Yes I do, I just don't follow intent based ethics. It's more important to me that the results of their actions will be terribly destructive than it is that they think they're doing the right thing. Who doesn't think they're doing the right thing? You find the worst political movement in history, and I'm sure there are people with good intentions behind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You really believe that we are the "other", the "enemy", that we hate the environment, minorities, and poor people, and for that misguided belief I pity you in your small mindedness.
    I don't subscribe to that bipolarity. I see different strains of thought that run together and apart. Some people do hate minorities, or poor people. Some really flippantly destroy the environment. That's obviously not everyone I disagree with, but it's some of them.

    You don't have to feel that way, however, to promote a way of life that punishes minorities and poor people and destroys the environment. That's more important to me.

    Perhaps you are failing to distinguish between not knowing and not caring.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I hope that one day you can have a well thought out discussion about politics, or at least be able to sit at the grownups table without polluting the discussion, but I suspect that that will never happen.

    Good day sir.
    Grownups who mock the physical appearance of their debate opponents, right?
    Boy do I have a lot to aspire for.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #49
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Cant wait to see his ass booted from office next year if the R-tards can mount a proper candidate, the mass suicide of liberals afterwards will be delectable.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  10. #50
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Cant wait to see his ass booted form office next year if the R-tards can mount a proper candidate, the mass suicide of liberals afterwards will be delectable.
    Because that's why we elect presidents, right? To inflict despair on large portions of the population.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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