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  1. #21
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Funny that you mentioned Huntsman. He does deserve some mention. He's in last place in the Republican presidential race, and he only very recently got into the news at all, and how has he done it? He's basically done it by saying "I'm the one that isn't insane". He's truly the exception that proves the rule. He's now campaigning on it.

    Not that I'd vote for him. His tax plan is a travesty like Ryan's.
    Really? No deductions whatsoever, and three rates of 8%, 14%, and 23% sounds pretty good to me. Not as good as scrapping the income tax entirely, but it could do wonders for long-term GDP growth, which will be vital to getting out from under this deficit.


    That may unfortunately be an inherent problem with Obama, I concede. Democrats needed FDR right about now, and they got something between Carter and Wilson.
    Obama is bad, but he's not a monster.


    I don't think racial tension is a particularly good topic to go for (though how long does one let it implicitly bubble in the language of the right-wing without addressing it?), but perhaps Democrats should take that tone with things that are more likely to receive wide acceptance.
    That's the problem here: at the moment, the racial tension is being fomented more by the CBC, which tilts way left. It "bubbles" EXPLICITLY in their rhetoric. And not in a good or popular way, either.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #22
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    She is surprisingly popular, though.
    Bachman is suprisingly overhyped. She is an old establishment candidate trying to pretend like she was always a part of this grassroots movement. If she has any popularity at all, it is because she is Diet Palin. If the real thing enters the race, then Bachman will become yesterday's news.

  3. #23
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    that's my local representative!

    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    and in today's society if you want attention saying something rather extreme seems to be the way to go... the republicans do it as well
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #24
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Looking at the link in the OP (I originally saw the story elsewhere), I see the statements:

    The comments were "prompted in response to frustration voiced by many in Miami and in his home district in Indianapolis regarding Congress' inability to bolster the economy," Jason Tomcsi, a Carson spokesman, said in a statement issued to news outlets. "The Tea Party is protecting its millionaire and oil company friends while gutting critical services that they know protect the livelihood of African-Americans, as well as Latinos and other disadvantaged minorities. We are talking about child nutrition, job creation, job training, housing assistance, and Head Start, and that is just the beginning. A child without basic nutrition, secure housing, and quality education has no real chance at a meaningful and productive life."
    Tomcsi continued, stating that "yes, the congressman used strong language because the Tea Party agenda jeopardizes our most vulnerable and leaves them without the ability to improve their economic standing."
    Still, their language is way too strong to be justified by that. It's basically greatly overboard hypebole, which again, is too prone to misunderstanding. Both people who do genuinely have racist sentiments, and even those who don't, will only have their feelings of guilt stoked, and react defensively, and the former will only lash back, while the latter might become tired of feeling accused and also eventually lash back.
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  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Really? No deductions whatsoever, and three rates of 8%, 14%, and 23% sounds pretty good to me. Not as good as scrapping the income tax entirely, but it could do wonders for long-term GDP growth, which will be vital to getting out from under this deficit.
    Really, really? That phrase implies surprise to me, and I can't figure out why you'd be surprised that I think a tax plan you favor is terrible.
    This is another case of why it shouldn't be a surprise. I think lowering income tax to those rates is not as bad as scrapping the income tax entirely, but close. And I don't think tax cuts will facilitate economic growth very much at all, it definitely won't cause enough growth to put even the slightest dent in the deficit, and I've nary heard a mainstream economist who thinks it would, no less the left-wing thinkers I'm aligned with.

    No two ways about it, you want to stop the debt, you're going to have to cut the spending and hike the taxes.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Obama is bad, but he's not a monster.
    I meant more in style than in ideology or policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's the problem here: at the moment, the racial tension is being fomented more by the CBC, which tilts way left. It "bubbles" EXPLICITLY in their rhetoric. And not in a good or popular way, either.
    You're right about it being explicit, but I'm not sure it's fair to say they are fomenting the tension more. It may be roughly approximate reactions with one being implicit and the other being explicit.
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  6. #26
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Really, really? That phrase implies surprise to me, and I can't figure out why you'd be surprised that I think a tax plan you favor is terrible.
    OK, how about telling me specifically what about it is so awful?


    This is another case of why it shouldn't be a surprise. I think lowering income tax to those rates is not as bad as scrapping the income tax entirely, but close. And I don't think tax cuts will facilitate economic growth very much at all, it definitely won't cause enough growth to put even the slightest dent in the deficit, and I've nary heard a mainstream economist who thinks it would, no less the left-wing thinkers I'm aligned with.
    Flattening the tax code and eliminating deductions and loopholes and the necessity of much tax consultancies and the like can definitely help long-term economic growth. Probably more than marginal tax increases, which don't do much in the short term at all.


    No two ways about it, you want to stop the debt, you're going to have to cut the spending and hike the taxes.
    Well, this is obviously not true. You can cut the spending a lot and keep the revenue the same or even slightly lower and cut the debt. It may not be politically palatable (especially to you), but it's absolutely doable.




    [QUOTEI meant more in style than in ideology or policy.[/QUOTE]

    I know, but every post I have on here could be "Woodrow Wilson sucked," and it still wouldn't be enough of an effort commensurate to his suckitude.


    You're right about it being explicit, but I'm not sure it's fair to say they are fomenting the tension more. It may be roughly approximate reactions with one being implicit and the other being explicit.
    There aren't many Tea Partiers playing the race card. Certainly not the major Tea Party politicians. There is a major difference between advocating policies that may impact minorities disproportionately and calling your political opponents "Jim Crow" proponents who want to kill people. There is nothing "roughly approximate" about that.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #27
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Looking at the link in the OP (I originally saw the story elsewhere), I see the statements:

    Still, their language is way too strong to be justified by that. It's basically greatly overboard hypebole, which again, is too prone to misunderstanding. Both people who do genuinely have racist sentiments, and even those who don't, will only have their feelings of guilt stoked, and react defensively, and the former will only lash back, while the latter might become tired of feeling accused and also eventually lash back.
    Generally speaking, those raised in low-income neighborhoods are more likely to be stuck in those conditions than say... middle class neighborhoods. Children who are raised in low-incomes families are
    1: More likely to hear less words from their parents
    2: More likely unable to see one or both parents for most of the day
    3: Unable to eat healthy meals due to lack of resources
    4: Likely to get bad grades compared to other families (excluding social stereotype)
    5: More likely to get in trouble - not enough time spent by parents to lecture or care for the child.
    6: More likely to stay in these conditions (unless the child wants to get away from those conditions.)

    It just so happens that Latinos and African-Americans, on a national average, make only around 30k-40k... while whites and Asians (including Asian-Indians) make upwards around 50k-70k... but that is a different story altogether.

    But ehhh, the tea-party attracts like-minded individual from the other side, nothing new there.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It seems to be a severe lack of tact. The same with other leaders, such as Sharpton, Jackson, the NAACP, etc. The conservatives usually retort that these people are just trying to maintain their relevance in the modern political landscape, and I find I have to largely agree with them.

    The problem starts, because people sense some questionable motives in the whole conservative movement, now most embodied in the Tea Party. The problem I have seen over the last 30 years is a tendency to blame (subtly or sometimes not so subtly) minorities for high taxes, supposedly for "welfare" programs. Like Reagan's "you're on line and someone walks ahead of you and buys steaks with food stamps while you struggle" or "Chicken Little" rhetoric.

    While it may have been abused a lot, it still was never the percentage of taxes people made it out to be, and even more than that, 15 years ago, it was reformed, when AFDC became TANF, and the number of recipients dropped to a quarter of what it was. Complaints about "welfare spending" subsided a bit, but still surface during presidential elections, or any time people want to complain about spending and taxes.

    Also, there's blame for other stuff like crime, and the War on Drugs (started by Reagan), which is seen as discriminatory.

    It seems the people who purport to defend against racism have been completely silent on stuff like this, while pointing out 'racism' in everything else. Like the uproar over the Mexican president claiming blacks don't want the jobs that Mexican immigrants take. Not nearly as offensive (or untrue) as some of the other stuff coming out of the conservative media ("lazy grasshoppers", etc), yet that is what was sharply condemned.

    So I would say that if this person and others are addressing a particular concern regarding the Tea Party, (like if they feel they're still wrongly blaming minorities for things), then they should specify the concern. Or just keep it to themselves.

    Generalistic statements like this are never understood, and only fuel the counter-rhetoric of those who are on the defensive against such charges. (Like that people are just "whining" about the past, and perhaps using an illegitimate cause to manipulate guilt, and to perhaps gain programs, or votes they really shouldn't have! See how it gets turned back around to support the initial rhetoric?)
    So tell us what exactly the party is doing that makes you say that. If there's no specific incident or ideology, then just drop it, at least until something does manifest somewhere.
    I tend to agree with commentators such as Malcolm X who were totally opposed to dependency of most black communities on welfare benefits, or opposed to "struggles for benefits" often given misnomers such as "workers rights" by the left wing, old socialists, not the sort that I've actually ever met but which I am acquainted with from history and old books used to protest "work not dole" and I think that is what's missing on the left for some time. I'm hopeful about the proposals of Obama, provided its not just hot air, although I can see it being anathema, properly so speaking, to the Tea Party.

    There are elements in the Tea Party who are racist, just as the slow gravitation from southern democrat to libertarian white seperatist saw the switch from one set of political activities to another without the core motives changing much, but as you say there is a lot of unreflective and objectively racist thinking going on on the left.

    In one of PKD's books he talked about how the black population had become extinct through the continual rolling out protection and programmes, its based upon the population and status of american indigenous today to that which it was originally, not sure of the power of reservations to have caused this but perhaps.

  9. #29
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yeah, Malcolm X was the best. All the time he preached racism, he was allowed to live (along with his successors in the NOI). yet when he changed, and started to get to the heart of the issue, then they got rid of him (and King as well).

    That just served to further funnel everything into the left/right Dem/Rep dichotomy, and gave the conservatives an easier target in their rhetoric.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    There is a study which I cant quite find right now which polled very large portions of the population on what was the most important to them politically.

    This makes it easy to look at a list of tea partiers and see what names from the study show up and what was apparently most important to them a few years ago. Very few if any said "smaller government" and the number one thing was the place of God in the government.

    (found it) http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/17/op...arty.html?_r=2
    (Found another one) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100501491.html

    The Tea Party is mostly just social conservatives collecting around the banner of so called "libretarianism".
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