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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Values are more important than things, possibly even people.

    To what extent do you agree with the title of the thread? Also what political ideology would you say it is associated with or would you associate it with any?

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    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    (Trying to picture values without things and people involved.)
    Is this part of the book that you were writing about?
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  3. #3
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    (Trying to picture values without things and people involved.)
    Pretty much...

    How are we defining the scope of our values? Are our values just ends, eg certain civil rights, no starvation etc. Or do these values include ideological notions such as the right of the state to redistribute income (or not)? Or what about values on the choice of specific policies?

    Democracy itself can be value-based depending on its implementation.

    I do believe that a personal value-based democracy (concentrating on ends, rather than ideological notions or specific policy) would be an improvement on our existing systems. Since when we vote for a specific candidate, we are voting for their set of values, which at best is often only a partial fit with our personal values.

    In the past, representational democracy was the only viable democratic system for intermediate to larger scales, due to limitations in information processing.

    But with modern computation, a value based democratic system is quickly becoming viable.

    The question is how could we measure the importance of each of our values in a rational way?

    I have a bit more to say with regards to scale, information processing and best fitting policy to a plurality of values (does it still have to be one size fits all? what about scale?), but I will stop here.

  4. #4
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Values are only useful in that they advance the human condition. They are cultural constructs and may vary in time and space. Which is not to say they can't be perverted and cease to have a useful function and its not to say they can't have a hierarchy. One can make with some degree of confidence qualitative judgments about them.

    To suggest that values may be more important than people strikes me as a profoundly conservative persective: I can see St. Thomas arguing that position.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  5. #5
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    uhhh....that question is far too vague to have a meaningful answer. It completely depends on how exactly you're using "values", "things", and "important".

    I mean, you could be saying that values are more important than things --> therefore I won't steal from that guy because the value of nonstealing is more important than the value of having things

    Or you could be saying that values are more important than things --> therefore I will starve to death when I get a broken leg because I value independence over food

    I mean it could mean almost anything, and most people who agree to the first statement wouldn't agree to the second. So almost everyone will agree in some cases and not in others....so how on earth could you associate it with politics? Improve your question first.
    -end of thread-

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    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Disagree. But I'm a feeler.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    There are values, then there are VALUES. Values can be political beasties, but VAULES are independent of political affiliations. (As I see it, any hoo.)
    The philiosophy of "For the greater good" comes to mind.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Well, values are ultimately for people, so in a sense they could never be more important than people. People with shared values are usually the basis of a culture. It might be said that values are more important the the individual. The specific individual may not agree, though, but who cares what he thinks if s/he's up against a whole culture. Of course if a value system values the individual, maybe that one person can find a place for himself.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    (Trying to picture values without things and people involved.)
    Is this part of the book that you were writing about?
    No, its another book, it refered to US conservatives not understanding or not being prepared to challenge libertarianism's popularity because they hadnt ever really understood the appeal of consumerism prefering their values to having more and more things.

    I perhaps dont totally understand the context and we are talking about pre-eighties cultural divisions, possibly pre-sixties, which I've read about but dont have a lived understanding of.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    uhhh....that question is far too vague to have a meaningful answer. It completely depends on how exactly you're using "values", "things", and "important".

    I mean, you could be saying that values are more important than things --> therefore I won't steal from that guy because the value of nonstealing is more important than the value of having things

    Or you could be saying that values are more important than things --> therefore I will starve to death when I get a broken leg because I value independence over food

    I mean it could mean almost anything, and most people who agree to the first statement wouldn't agree to the second. So almost everyone will agree in some cases and not in others....so how on earth could you associate it with politics? Improve your question first.
    I dont think the question's as flawed as you make out, where it so you couldnt have come up with that response.

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