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  1. #11
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I also think that it's true the other way around.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #12
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Mysticism and the Enlightenment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Everything begins in mysticism and ends in politics. - Charles Péguy
    This was true before the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries.

    For before the Enlightenment the best science we had was religion. And the best religion was based on mysticism.

    And mysticism, however important and delightful it may be, was not based on empirical evidence and reason.

    And it is true the Scholastics did apply reason to mysticism, but this is simply applying reason to imagination.

    No, we had to wait for the Enlightenment to apply reason to empirical evidence.

    And so the whole of the modern world we see around us is based on the Enlightenment, from modern medicine, modern democracy, modern economics, to modern science.

    And interestingly, MBTI remains in the realm of the mystic, while psychometrics is in the realm of science and and the Enlightenment.

  3. #13
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    No, we had to wait for the Enlightenment to apply reason to empirical evidence.
    It is still politics is it not?

  4. #14
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This was true before the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th Centuries.

    For before the Enlightenment the best science we had was religion. And the best religion was based on mysticism.

    And mysticism, however important and delightful it may be, was not based on empirical evidence and reason.

    And it is true the Scholastics did apply reason to mysticism, but this is simply applying reason to imagination.

    No, we had to wait for the Enlightenment to apply reason to empirical evidence.

    And so the whole of the modern world we see around us is based on the Enlightenment, from modern medicine, modern democracy, modern economics, to modern science.

    And interestingly, MBTI remains in the realm of the mystic, while psychometrics is in the realm of science and and the Enlightenment.
    And so now, the best religion we have is scientism.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And so now, the best religion we have is scientism.
    Some religions, such as Catholicism, are based on faith and reason. In other words they apply reason to faith and believe what is reasonable.

    In contradistinction, science applies reason to empirical evidence.

    So science is radically different from religion.

    Whereas scientism is the superstitious use of science. And MBTI along with astrology is a good example of scientism. But scientism is not science.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    It is still politics is it not?
    The politics arising from mysticism is radically different from the politics arising from the Enlightenment.

    For mystical politics is intuitive, while Enlightenment politics is counter-intuitive.

    Mystical politicians seek intuitively to maximise power, while Enlightenment politicians seek counter-intuitively to limit power.

    Why is this?

    The Enlightenment sought to limit political power when it discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    And mystical power is based on the absolute power of God, while Enlightenment power is based on fallible human beings.

    So mystical power tends towards corruption, whle Enlightenment power tends towards the limitation of corruption.

  7. #17
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Enlightenment sought to limit political power when it discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    I guess most of the world is not yet enlightened.

  8. #18
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    You're slinging a lot of words around there, Vic. Just to understand what you are saying.. is this what you mean by mysticism? From the wiki:

    Mysticism ( pronunciation (help·info); from the Greek μυστικός, mystikos, an initiate of a mystery religion)[1] is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.
    Religious traditions describe fundamental mystical experience. Enlightenment or Illumination are generic English terms for the phenomenon, derived from the Latin illuminatio (applied to Christian prayer in the 15th century) and adopted in English translations of Buddhist texts, but used loosely to describe the state of mystical attainment regardless of faith.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    I guess most of the world is not yet enlightened.
    Of course a perfect example is the theocratic State of Iran. It is a corrupt dictatorship based on the mytical religion of Islam.

    However religions such as Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and others have accepted liberal democracy and the limitation of political power.

  10. #20
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I share your idealism. The US federal government for example has not effectively limited its power.

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