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View Poll Results: Gay marriage rights

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  • Should be given

    158 92.94%
  • Should not be given

    9 5.29%
  • Could tolerate gay couples, but can't tolerate gay marriages

    9 5.29%
  • Can't tolerate gay marriages or couples

    3 1.76%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 21 to 30 of 591

  1. #21
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Lark, you assume that when the government enacts a law that it holds no sway over the opinion's of the masses; I would be inclined to disagree. There is very much a give and take between the government and the public, with one influencing the other and vice versa. Using gravity is a poor analogy.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    I read once that married people are much more productive. I would much rather have a more productive society, and when you throw the really important bits like civil rights in there, it kind of becomes all-too-obvious

  3. #23
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Lark, you assume that when the government enacts a law that it holds no sway over the opinion's of the masses; I would be inclined to disagree. There is very much a give and take between the government and the public, with one influencing the other and vice versa. Using gravity is a poor analogy.
    I believe his point is that marriage is what it is regardless of people's opinions, that it is an eternal concept designed by god to be between a man and a woman, wherefore it cannot be changed in any way. I would like to ask him how he knows that, but he has me on ignore.

    Edit: I was wrong. 'God' is to be replaced with 'organical evolvement'.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    why exactly do you not like about gay marriage? I won't try to convince otherwise, I'd just rather hear your reasoning. if it's gay culture in general, then to be honest, I can sympathize despite the fact that I am gay, but you should know that not ALL of use dress in hideous, grotesque clothing, talk like high school cheerleaders, rape each other and aspire to be Lady GaGa.
    Its not to do with the gay scene Elfboy, there are gays who arent "scene", they're probably a lot like yourself given what you've typed.

    Principally my problem is the naive reasoning and expectations of government behind agendas such as this one.

    I dont believe its within the gift of government to change the fundamental character of enduring social insititutions which have organically evolved or emerged to serve society. Marriage is a good example of this and it is a relationship between a man and a woman.

    Suggesting that it is merely a contractual relationship is sociologically naive, although its one of the wonderful legacies of the liberal revolutions that people honestly believe most relationships are contractual.

    Another legacy is that people naively believe that anything can be mandated by government without consequences. So there is the, frankly, ludicrous situation in which libertarians discuss market forces as a natural law bound system which the state interfers with at its peril but much more fundamental building blocks of society can be revised and restructured at a legislative stroke.

    While I believe that the state mandating change in organically evolved and enduring (barely) institutions such as marriage and the family is folly per se I think that gay marriage is specifically wrong. It will not provide the satisfaction which most gay campaigners and fellow travellers believe it will.

    Heterosexuals will continue to marry, consider gay "marriage" as as ridiculous an idea as calling a dog a horse because it is born in a barn, teach their children that a marriage is between a man and a woman. So it will not deliver the sort of parity of esteem which I believe most gay campaigners think it will.

    Infact I believe it could become an impetus for those opposing the spread of homosexuality culturally (which is different from the existence of a minority of people who are "born that way"), given that there are diverse and disparite opponents of homosexuality, some of whom are bigots or motivated by hatred, that could be a pretty ugly development. Where not many people have thought about it or cared, there will be conscientious objectors, I dont expect it to happen over night but I'm sure people will get as sick of it as they have of political correctness.

    I also think its wrong because of what I believe the consequences would be if the homosexual cultural agenda were to prove successful. The majority of the population are heterosexual, a minority is homosexual. Now that minority has been very vocal about the especial challenges they have experienced growing up as a minority in a world which they find culturally estranging.

    Should the homosexual cultural agenda succeed and sexual orientation be treated as perfectly the same, equality means sameness in most of the narratives I'm aware of, the only predictable consequence will be that even more individuals will grow up estranged and confused about their sexual orientation. I see absolutely no benefice in that what so ever.

    Now, I'm not opposed to the homosexual community organising themselves whatever way they want, no more than I'd be concerned about the Amish or similar community which has a definitive difference from the majority doing so. I personally dont feel that the lifestyle of either should become the norm but the Amish dont care and are much less likely to make an issue of it, unlike the homosexual campaigners and their fellow travellers.

    I do have issues with how the homosexual community has developed and the role it plays, I think that the objective number of individuals who are "born gay" is probably pretty small, perhaps the same as the number of individuals born with both sets of genitalia or born blind or deaf (I know someone is going to say that its discriminatory to put sexual orientation in the same category as disability but I do consider disability to be a matter of minority-majority relations too). Now that does not account for the size of the homosexual community so I think something else is going on which threatens not simply my norms but society's ability to function and reproduce itself.

    I'm planning this to be my final word on this topic more or less but its been my point consistently from the earliest I remember this being a topic for discussion.

  5. #25
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Why isn't this a radio-button selection poll? <annoyed> /rant


    Rights should be given.

    We have no right to exclude individuals from the same rights others are entitled to, based on gender, age, sex, sexuality, etc. Prejudice is bullshit.

  6. #26
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Can we keep this from spiraling into 500 pages of confusion by first agreeing that we are talking about "marriage" as a legal concept, rather than marriage as a social/spiritual practice?

  7. #27
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    As I said, gays are ever allowed to marry if it is that they want.

    It's not the mission of the state to marry gay couples, end of the question.
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  8. #28
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe its within the gift of government to change the fundamental character of enduring social insititutions which have organically evolved or emerged to serve society. Marriage is a good example of this and it is a relationship between a man and a woman.
    This isn't the first time I've heard this.. But "that's the way it's always been" doesn't mean that way is the right way. The government, if anyone, is gifted with the ability to change the fundamental character of society. It's the exact opposite of the quoted. We don't segregate black people from white people because 'it's always been that way'.. We don't because the government has stepped in and said it's illegal to do so. If the government said nothing, states would still be practicing these things, and people outside of state-respect would still be practicing them. It's not a perfect fix, no.. No one can change the minds of people but themselves, and time. But the government has resources, laws, police force, and incentives on its side. People don't really have that on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's not the mission of the state to marry gay couples, end of the question.
    It is, however, the mission of the state to keep up with the changes in society, and update laws to accommodate the changes in society. The demand for homosexual marriage has risen by both hetero and homo parties. The mindset of society has shifted from extremely-christian oriented to diverse. The laws are benefitting a group of people based solely on their religion--and they're leaving out those who aren't religious (or of the same exact faith and interpretation) in the process.

    I do agree that they should fight for civil unions first. I don't think it should stop there, but I do think it should start there.

    Luna: The whole reason there's a big fuss in the first place is that many feel marriage was something invented by religion, so they cannot be distinguished. While this may or may not be the case, marriage now-a-days has evolved past religion. If no benefits came other than people knowing you're married under God, I don't know if gays would do anything more than start their own churches and seek protection. As it stands, the state has to recognize the marriage, the tax payers are treated differently, and the slew of other things that happen based on marriage is what blurs the lines so much.
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  9. #29
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It is, however, the mission of the state to keep up with the changes in society,
    No. If society changes, it changes, and the state have not to encourage it to change and not to prevent that change either. It has nothing to do.

    and update laws to accommodate the changes in society.
    As I said, I'm in favor of lower tax for gay couples, but that does'nt mean anything actually: I demand an overall tax relief, not only on gay. But I agree that if heterosexual couple benefit of tax relief, gay couples should benefit of that too.

    The demand for homosexual marriage has risen by both hetero and homo parties.
    Debatable. It's above all a liberal movement, tons of homo sexual don't give a damn about marriage and don't think gay marriage should be given.

    The mindset of society has shifted from extremely-christian oriented to diverse.

    The mindset could move from diverse to christian oriented again, and I don't think you would agree to change the law according to that mindset in this case. The mindset of society does'nt matter, if the mindset of society had really changed, gay marriage would have risen spontaneously without the help of the state. But it did'nt happen.

    The laws are benefitting a group of people based solely on their religion--and they're leaving out those who aren't religious (or of the same exact faith and interpretation) in the process.
    So what? If you don't share the convctions of the club, you are not member of the club, that's all. It's not an affect to your freedom and nobody prevent you to create your own club.

    I do agree that they should fight for civil unions first. I don't think it should stop there, but I do think it should start there.
    It will be a stop and we must be very clear about this.

    The revendication for gay marriage is essentially a whim of rich.
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  10. #30
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    someone posted something funny on facebook about how stupid it is that it's even called "gay" marriage....because it's not like they get in their gay car and go gay park to go to a gay lunch...etc etc...marriage is marriage and the mere fact there has to be a distinction between the gay and non gay variety of marriage makes me feel like i'm living with a bunch of fucking cave people.
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