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View Poll Results: Gay marriage rights

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  • Should be given

    158 92.94%
  • Should not be given

    9 5.29%
  • Could tolerate gay couples, but can't tolerate gay marriages

    9 5.29%
  • Can't tolerate gay marriages or couples

    3 1.76%
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Results 211 to 220 of 591

  1. #211
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Where and how have you acquired that knowledge?
    Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #212
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Seriously, nicodemus. We have been over this many times now. We don't agree on a bunch of crap.
    This is just beating a dead horse or alternatively you trying to make me say something that will get me banned for "hate speech".

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  3. #213
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0110011001110101 View Post
    Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it isn't there.
    Answer the question, please. I want to show you something.

    Also, I am not interested in getting you banned. What a waste that would be.

  4. #214
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Just show it to me then. You know I am a left wing fascist.
    It could sway me, it isn't impossible, but if nothing in my life so far has done so after thousands of attempts, I don't think it will.
    If it will miraculously "cure" me and make me stop feeling utterly disgusted so damn often, I guess it could be worth it.
    Not exactly something I like, you know.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  5. #215
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I need your answer first, and it must be an honest one.

  6. #216
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I need your answer first, and it must be an honest one.
    Alright. I have mentioned the inner compass before to you. It's just an expression, but it is instinctual.
    Through feeling people around me and myself, as well as ideas... I just feel that it is not something that should be embraced by society.
    You can disprove almost anything with logic, so I don't think morals have much to do with logic at all.
    I strongly feel that it is something bad, and that I do not like the mental quality of the people who embrace these things.
    Too often I feel that it has a lot to do with abnormal sexual behaviors.
    It just isn't pretty. To me this kind of feels like explaining to someone why I think Josef Fritzl is a bad bad man.
    Necrophilia, pedophilia, homosexuality, transsexualism and many deviant behaviors do land in the same category for me.
    It is perverted and disturbs the order of normal society unless suppressed and kept under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy like the one the american armed forces had up until recently.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #217
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0110011001110101 View Post
    Alright. I have mentioned the inner compass before to you. It's just an expression, but it is instinctual.
    Through feeling people around me and myself, as well as ideas... I just feel that it is not something that should be embraced by society.
    You can disprove almost anything with logic, so I don't think morals have much to do with logic at all.
    I strongly feel that it is something bad, and that I do not like the mental quality of the people who embrace these things.
    Too often I feel that it has a lot to do with abnormal sexual behaviors.
    It just isn't pretty. To me this kind of feels like explaining to someone why I think Josef Fritzl is a bad bad man.
    Necrophilia, pedophilia, homosexuality, transsexualism and many deviant behaviors do land in the same category for me.
    It is perverted and disturbs the order of normal society unless suppressed and kept under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy like the one the american armed forces had up until recently.
    So, in other words, you do not know that, for instance, homosexual sex is bad. You merely have strong visceral reactions towards it. So have I. Why do you think your feelings are more important than mine?

    Another point:

    What makes someone a human being? The idea that each human being shares with every other human being but with nothing else some essential, human-making feature goes back at least to Aristotle. He thought that each species was defined by an "essence" - a set of properties found in each individual of the species, but only there. That essence makes it the sort of creature that it is. [...]

    In reality, however, there is no such thing as the "genetic essence" of a species. A central aspect of modern evolutionary theory is population thinking. Each population is a collection of individuals with many genetic differences, and these differences are handed on to future generations in new combinations. Populations change generation by generation. In many contemporary views of the nature of species, there is no upper limit to the amount of evolutionary change that can take place within one species. Over many generations a species may be transformed in appearance, behavior, or genetic constitution while still remaining the same species. Diversity is normal, and perhaps even functional, for lack of diversity makes a species vulnerable to parasitism and to extinction due to environmental change. So uniform populations in the natural world are unusual. [...] Contemporary views on species are close to a consensus in thinking that species are identified by their histories. According to these views, Charles Darwin was a human being not by virtue of having the field marks-rationality and an odd distribution of body hair-described (in Alpha Centaurese) in A Guide to the Primates of Sol, but in view of his membership in a population with a specific evolutionary history. [...]

    The implications of this transformation of our view of species have been much discussed in philosophy of biology, although they have been surprisingly neglected in ethics. David Hull, in particular, has argued that nothing in biology corresponds to the traditional notion of "human nature". This idea is significant, for the concept of human nature has been historically important. It has underwritten the view that there is some way that human beings are supposed to be, and that other ways of being are deviant or abnormal. [...]

    Biology is often supposed to provide some backing for this notion of normality: that there is a way that members of any species - including Homo sapiens - are meant to be, and that deviations from this are abnormal. But Darwinian species are continually evolving clusters of more or less similar organisms. There is nothing privileged about the current statistical norm. [...]

    So no general biological principle suggests that human moral feelings, mental abilities, or fundamental desires should be any more uniform than human blood type or eye color.

    - Sterelny, Kim and Griffiths, Paul E.: Sex and Death. An Introduction to Philosophy of Biology. Chicago: University Of Chicago Press 1996. p 7-8.

  8. #218
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    I'm inclined to say that my feelings are simply more important to me than yours.
    But everything, even logic, is subjective. So we're not getting anywhere at all.
    I guess you are familiar with Plato's cave allegory.

    Seriously, far from everything can be put into clever words. It just IS, independent of religion or society.
    It is in my nature to have a strong anti-reaction to what I perceive as perverted.
    By default, perverted individuals are... Not evil unless it hurts someone... But lacking character in a major way.
    By allowing it to exist in the open, even more decadence follows as people who lack the "inner compass" starts to question what is right and what is wrong until NOTHING is sacred anymore.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  9. #219
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0110011001110101 View Post
    I'm inclined to say that my feelings are simply more important to me than yours.
    That would be all right if you contented yourself with that, but in addition to holding unreasonable beliefs, you also seek to have other people suffer for it. You pose a threat to many people's happiness. Perhaps you should be slain in the name of the greater good.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0110011001110101 View Post
    Seriously, far from everything can be put into clever words. It just IS, independent of religion or society.
    It is in my nature to have a strong anti-reaction to what I perceive as perverted.
    By default, perverted individuals are... Not evil unless it hurts someone... But lacking character in a major way.
    By allowing it to exist in the open, even more decadence follows as people who lack the "inner compass" starts to question what is right and what is wrong until NOTHING is sacred anymore.
    Have you read the quotes from 'Sex and Death' at all?

  10. #220
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That would be all right if you contented yourself with that, but in addition to holding unreasonable beliefs, you also seek to have other people suffer for it. You pose a threat to many people's happiness. Perhaps you should be slain in the name of the greater good.
    *gasp*

    I think it highlights a problem, where people can hold onto irrational beliefs without repercussion to themselves... and/or even make others pay the cost for their freedom to hold irrational beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0110011001110101
    It is perverted and disturbs the order of normal society unless suppressed and kept under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy like the one the american armed forces had up until recently.
    Um.... we removed it because it wasn't working. It was a detriment to the careers and private lives of people who were committed members of the military, and it wasn't even working DADT, it was "if you get any hint that someone might be gay, get them to admit it by any means necessary and then remove them." These are people who do their jobs well, have typically received commendations, and sometimes whom the government has invested thousands and thousands of dollars in their education... being tossed aside from something that has no bearing on their professional work, which has been carried out with skill and integrity. Our efforts overseas were badly hurt by firing people from the military for who they had built long-term relationships with in their personal lives, we lost specialists who were contributing to the safety and success of other military personnel in harm's way.

    What's funny is that I have acquaintances who actually interact with high-level military staff, and I've been told the generals and high-in-commands actually were all for removing the stupid rule because of these reasons. There's kind of shift in thinking as you go lower on the managerial chain in the military. Still, even then, you can easily find military guys who might know their buddy is gay, but they trust him with their lives and don't have an issue because he's proven himself to be there in the trenches.

    You can believe whatever you want, however detached from reality it might be, but I consider such beliefs to be irresponsible. Feelings are feelings. You are free to "feel" whatever you want, just as I am, but feelings have to be evaluated and then responses considered. Even with the negative feedback you generate, you receive more respect and understanding here as a minority attacking the moral caliber as an entire group of people who actually performs as admirably as any other group, than you would dole out to them in turn. That, to me, is just taking advantage of the system of exchange. I know for me, I feel that if I want to be worthy of respect, I need to challenge myself and make sure that my ideas are coherent, supportable, and fair to others, regardless of how I "feel" toward them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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