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View Poll Results: Gay marriage rights

Voters
170. You may not vote on this poll
  • Should be given

    158 92.94%
  • Should not be given

    9 5.29%
  • Could tolerate gay couples, but can't tolerate gay marriages

    9 5.29%
  • Can't tolerate gay marriages or couples

    3 1.76%
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  1. #171
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I thought part of the stipulation is that religions would not be required to accept it as a marriage within their church; the state and feds would simply accept it on a secular basis, as a "reasonable contract"; so I still don't understand your logic here. Nothing you said actually applies to same-sex marriage as it would be implemented.

    As far as other things go, the government tells people all the time what rights will be granted. If I have a religious belief that black or Hispanic people should not be allowed in the country and given citizenship, but the government does so anyway, I have no choice but to accept that. I might not have to accept them into my church, but the government will still accept them as citizens and grant the rights thereof.
    Thats interesting.

    Couple of points or questions just of the bat of this post here.

    Am I right in saying that the first paragraph indicates that civil marriages, state marriages, and religious ceremonies, church marriages will be seperate? So that churches WILL lawfully continue to maintain the illegitimacy of "marriage" between anything other than a man and woman?

    Do you think that gay rights campaigners will be satisfied with that?

    The first part appears at odds with the second part, you suggest that irrespective of private opinion, lets say private conscience, that if the government sanctions something there is no space for opposition, to directly quote you:

    I have no choice but to accept that


    Is that what the gay rights agenda is about? Using state power to eradicate any choice about accepting homosexuality as norms and mores?

    I mean, I've always suspected this, it would be great if you could clear up with a simple yes or no if this is what you're saying. I dont see any other way that could be construed to be perfectly frank.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    I personally don't think it matters if gay people wanna elope. America is built on freedom and separation of church and state. Not everyone in America is a christian, and I don't see why we should forbid it for religious reasons. I am a Christian but I also believe in allowing people to make their own choices. Just because I believe gay marriage is wrong for me doesn't give me the right to tell everyone else it is wrong. After all religion is very personal. And when it comes down to it how is being a homosexual worse than stealing a handbag, or being a drug dealer in the eyes of God? Its not. I'm not saying its justified I am just saying there is only one unforgivable sin, and it isn't homosexuality.
    I find that very strange. That version of religion you describe. While it could be personal, or as Martin Luther professed most forcefully and later liberal revolutions codified in law a matter of private conscience, it surely has some obective and social context, the personal Jesus that one Christian honours and obeys not a different personal Jeuss to the one another does. If something is a sin for one individual then it is surely a sin for all individuals rather than a personal preference or taste?

    I would not suggest for a moment that the laws or ethical teachings governing believers should be applied to non-believers, often because many of the ethical teachings of a belief system make belief requisite, that is without strong beliefs it would be impossible to obeserve the teachings. However that is not to say that I dont believe these teachings and precepts dont have a universal validity, just that people will err and besides the natural consequences of doing so I dont believe any sanction or punish need be applied to them.

    However, I would make one important caveat, while this is my conviction, which I maintain, that so far as possible in a society in which there are diverse beliefs systems that those applying specifically to one set of beliefs should not be enacted upon those holding a seperate and conflicting belief system it is not widespread. While I dont find support for the spread of homosexuality and its popularisation to be right thinking I know there are people who think that way, they're often good people besides holding that, in my opinion, wrongful belief, I dont think anyone should interfer with them holding that belief. On the other hand there are many who think it shouldnt be permitted to hold the belief that the spread of and popularisation of homosexuality as a cultural norm is wrongful.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Thats interesting.

    Couple of points or questions just of the bat of this post here.

    Am I right in saying that the first paragraph indicates that civil marriages, state marriages, and religious ceremonies, church marriages will be seperate? So that churches WILL lawfully continue to maintain the illegitimacy of "marriage" between anything other than a man and woman?
    I don't know if the 1,000,001th time I repeat such will have anything over the 1,000,000th time I've said it, in your eyes.

    Do you think that gay rights campaigners will be satisfied with that?
    Think through it, Lark.

    If legal vs religious unions are kept separate, then at that point is a religious issue.

    Any dissent to the church's doctrines would be handled internally to the religious organization, just as every other disagreement about "what the faith means" is handled. Do you have any experience with US government affairs when it comes to religious freedom? The state simply doesn't like to intrude into "religious issues" except in matters of how they impact the state. Which is why there's a lot of dubious stuff that people claim "religious freedom" on even when people are complaining (such as child discipline), and the state does nothing to stop it.

    And that process is already occurring. There are already lots of arguments within the religious orgs about whether to accept homosexuality and same-sex marriages. Some religious orgs choose to acknowledge them; some peacefully separate into factions where each can hold their own views; a few orgs actually break into officially new orgs, in order to respect the desires of each faction. That's just life. But that's where it would be handled. The states typically have kept their hands off the internal doctrinal matters of religious orgs, and considering how the US became a separate country from England, you can see why that pattern persists... it's part of our heritage as a country.

    Is that what the gay rights agenda is about? Using state power to eradicate any choice about accepting homosexuality as norms and mores?
    Is that what the religious agenda is about -- using state power to eradicate any choice about accepting homosexuality as norms and mores?

    Based on your approach to things, black people in the US would still be slaves and women wouldn't be allowed to vote.

    I mean, I've always suspected this, it would be great if you could clear up with a simple yes or no if this is what you're saying. I dont see any other way that could be construed to be perfectly frank.
    A simple yes and no, as long as it fits your preconceptions, would make life much easier for you, wouldn't it?
    It's too bad that life is full of grays and you're just going to have to invest some energy here to engage the issues.

    I still don't understand why you seem to be SO terrified of the "gay agenda" and same-sex marriage. Is there a reason you're typically taking these kinds of stances and so much fear that something will change?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #174
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I find that very strange. That version of religion you describe. While it could be personal, or as Martin Luther professed most forcefully and later liberal revolutions codified in law a matter of private conscience, it surely has some obective and social context, the personal Jesus that one Christian honours and obeys not a different personal Jeuss to the one another does. If something is a sin for one individual then it is surely a sin for all individuals rather than a personal preference or taste?

    I would not suggest for a moment that the laws or ethical teachings governing believers should be applied to non-believers, often because many of the ethical teachings of a belief system make belief requisite, that is without strong beliefs it would be impossible to obeserve the teachings. However that is not to say that I dont believe these teachings and precepts dont have a universal validity, just that people will err and besides the natural consequences of doing so I dont believe any sanction or punish need be applied to them.

    However, I would make one important caveat, while this is my conviction, which I maintain, that so far as possible in a society in which there are diverse beliefs systems that those applying specifically to one set of beliefs should not be enacted upon those holding a seperate and conflicting belief system it is not widespread. While I dont find support for the spread of homosexuality and its popularisation to be right thinking I know there are people who think that way, they're often good people besides holding that, in my opinion, wrongful belief, I dont think anyone should interfer with them holding that belief. On the other hand there are many who think it shouldnt be permitted to hold the belief that the spread of and popularisation of homosexuality as a cultural norm is wrongful.
    Everyone sins. And not everyone is a Christian. if someone is an atheist I doubt sinning would matter to them, it wouldn't exist. If something doesn't exist to someone, how could they be doing wrong?

  5. #175
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    Everyone sins. And not everyone is a Christian. if someone is an atheist I doubt sinning would matter to them, it wouldn't exist. If something doesn't exist to someone, how could they be doing wrong?
    It depends. Did God make people or did people make God?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  6. #176
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It depends. Did God make people or did people make God?
    I believe God made people, but would good would that do if someone believes otherwise? It would be their reality.

  7. #177
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    I believe God made people, but would good would that do if someone believes otherwise? It would be their reality.
    If you don't believe that humans can fly if they jump off the Empire state building what good would it do if someone believes otherwise? It would be their reality.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
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  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    Everyone sins. And not everyone is a Christian. if someone is an atheist I doubt sinning would matter to them, it wouldn't exist. If something doesn't exist to someone, how could they be doing wrong?


    Christianity/bible wasn't the thing that defined sins and merits. I'm rather confused as to what you're implying. I'm sure you knew that people know what's right or wrong and religion is not needed for them to know. Of course religion adds to the list.

    And people this is the 'Gay Marriage Poll' thread not 'What your religion has to say about Gay marriages Poll' thread.'

  9. #179
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    If you don't believe that humans can fly if they jump off the Empire state building what good would it do if someone believes otherwise? It would be their reality.
    I read that book.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #180
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    95:10. In time the Others will consume the ten who went astray.

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