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View Poll Results: Gay marriage rights

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170. You may not vote on this poll
  • Should be given

    158 92.94%
  • Should not be given

    9 5.29%
  • Could tolerate gay couples, but can't tolerate gay marriages

    9 5.29%
  • Can't tolerate gay marriages or couples

    3 1.76%
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  1. #151
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    what's the difference between a couple that's been together for 5 years and got married and one that hasn't gotten married?

    a fucking paper?

  2. #152
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    would you mind if I clarified your disagreement? it sounds to me like your main disagreement is one of definition. you support civil union for homosexuals but you don't support gay marriage because it goes against the definition of marriage? is this right (I pullled a stereotypical ENFP and only skimmed your posts, so please correct me if I'm wrong)
    I think it's more or less that. Marriage is actually not necessarly religious, it exist before christianism. And that was to unify men and women and their family, and guarantee the right of the natural children and their status as member of the generation chain. Also to force the father to assume his responsability to the woman and the children. It is a institution who rised spontaneously to meet practical necessities (and not an irrational belief as some assume). The marriage differ in his form and the status of the man and the woman vary, but a marriage is always between a man and a woman and arise directly from the capacity to have natural children. Of course, gays are not concerned by this.

    However, although marriage was not necessarly consentant and between equal partner, it happen that modern marriage is like that. At the point that people often think that "a marriage is a consentant union between to equal people", that's what gays want, and many believe that they want marriage because of this, but they actually want a marginal aspect of marriage, the core mainspring of marriage don't concern them. The term "gay marriage" is essentially a newspeak invented by liberals*, and it's not the goal of the state to promote their project to reform society and destroy moral landmark arised from centuries of civilisation.

    *Liberals and not gays, because as far as I know, most part of gays are not part of the self-proclaimed representative "LGBT", and don't care about marriage as long as they have freedom.
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  3. #153
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I think it's more or less that. Marriage is actually not necessarly religious, it exist before christianism. And that was to unify men and women and their family, and guarantee the right of the natural children and their status as member of the generation chain. Also to force the father to assume his responsability to the woman and the children. It is a institution who rised spontaneously to meet practical necessities (and not an irrational belief as some assume). The marriage differ in his form and the status of the man and the woman vary, but a marriage is always between a man and a woman and arise directly from the capacity to have natural children. Of course, gays are not concerned by this.
    However, although marriage was not necessarly consentant and between equal partner, it happen that modern marriage is like that. At the point that people often think that "a marriage is a consentant union between to equal people", that's what gays want, and many believe that they want marriage because of this, but they actually want a marginal aspect of marriage, the core mainspring of marriage don't concern them. The term "gay marriage" is essentially a newspeak invented by liberals*, and it's not the goal of the state to promote their project to reform society and destroy moral landmark arised from centuries of civilisation.
    *Liberals and not gays, because as far as I know, most part of gays are not part of the self-proclaimed representative "LGBT", and don't care about marriage as long as they have freedom.
    so essentially you're saying the purpose of this discussion is inconsequential because gaining marital rights would in essence accomplish absolutely nothing and is therefore a waste of government spending to go through the bureaucracy of changing the laws? If so, I don't agree with your point, but at the very least it's more logical than I initially perceived it to be. I'll leave it at that because I'm too lazy to come up with an argument at present
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  4. #154
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    what's the difference between a couple that's been together for 5 years and got married and one that hasn't gotten married?

    a fucking paper?
    If I'am with a woman since 5 years and not married with her, I can eject her down the street and I don't give a damn about what can happen to her.

    If I'am married with a woman since 5 years, i took the commitment to be with her until the end of my life, and even if I divorce, I still have duty toward her.

    Big difference.
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  5. #155
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i never in my life have seen a single logical, well-thought out argument against gay marriage. reading this thread has not changed that.
    Shh, don't discourage them now. They're on a roll!

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Actually, there's not solid reason in favour of gay marriage either. And the goal of the state is not to promote your value. Gay marriage is a useless institution, and if an institution is useless we should'nt create it. Occam's razor.
    First, that's a terrible example of Occam's razor.

    Second, you haven't really proven your point that gay marriage is useless. You have a slightly unconventional view of it and you don't profess to be anti-gay or have problems with homosexuality. However, you don't really seem to care or be able to conceptualize the concept of equal human rights. You're stuck on your concepts of 'big government is bad' so it gives you a very narrow way to approach issues like same sex marriage. It's not just an issue about 'church and state' or 'state powers' it's a human rights issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    We should'nt change because things are good as they are.
    For you.

    That's not how fair governance or society works. You have to think about everyone and balance the needs and desires of individuals versus the group versus each other versus fairness and principles etc. etc. etc.

    You might think higher education is a waste of time or would never join the military. That doesn't mean that other people should be denied this opportunity based on bigotry. You might be well fed and be given food you aren't too happy about (maybe your dad is a bad cook) but that doesn't mean a starving person wouldn't desire and in fact need what you are readily given.

    What you're doing right now is basically holding back people who would feed the starving or allow the underprivileged to go to college because "the food sucks" or "college is elitist and the kind of society I envision as I have no need for out of touch intellectuals".

    Just because you yourself would not take advantage of an opportunity or think it is ill thought out or wrongheaded or foolish, doesn't mean that you get to deny that right to others.

    A full man telling a hungry one "the buffet wasn't good anyways" - the words just sound hollow. And kinda insult the hungry man.

    Don't know if those analogies hit home but even though you may not think your stance is ethically wrong per sae, it ignores a very real human rights and equality factor from the equation.

    Being a queer woman, I know lots of folks in the GLBT community thumb their noses at the 'marriage equality' movement for many different reasons. Including the need to assimilate and be accepted 'exactly the same as a straight person' and ignoring many other issues and tensions. I'm not an assimilationist (sp?) at all but I do see the practical need to push for marriage equality and the gigantic symbolic/legal/ cultural/social impact and step forward it would take for equal rights for and acceptance of GLBT people.

    You big giant meanie, Speed! When the world ends, I'm totally NOT going into your post-apocalyptic camp.
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  6. #156
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    The term "gay marriage" is essentially a newspeak invented by liberals*, and it's not the goal of the state to promote their project to reform society and destroy moral landmark arised from centuries of civilisation.
    This is the same bullshit rhetoric that those shitheaded fundies like to employ. But I'll respond to it all the same:

    1. Why is it not the goal of the state to promote projects which "reform society" IF those projects are good for the public? We have historically done so and will, barring a total collapse of government, continue to do so in the future. Since gay marriage is good for some and bad for none, and forbidding gay marriage is bad for some and good for none, then we have every reason to legalize gay marriage. And that's not to mention that, while individual gay people will certainly benefit from gay marriage, there is a much larger benefit in the form of symbolic value, which benefits everyone because it helps to increase tolerance and reduce anti-gay attitudes.

    2. What does it mean to "destroy [a] moral landmark" and what are the disastrous consequences you believe will ensue?

    3. What makes marriage a "moral landmark," and what does the term mean? Are you trying to say that the inclusion of gays in marriage will result in some sort of societal loss of morality?

    4. If yes, why do you think this? I hope it's not because of some mistaken belief that the collapse of the Roman Empire was as a result of moral degradation (including rampant homosexuality), because you know that's simply not true, right?
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  7. #157
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    You have to prove that gay marriage would be an improvement. That's all.
    Well, why wouldn't it be better? It would make quite a few people happy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I was gonna say, Speed seems very much like an INTJ to me. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so
    I think I could agree with that statement, but I'm not sure I've seen enough of his postings.
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  8. #158
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    *Liberals and not gays, because as far as I know, most part of gays are not part of the self-proclaimed representative "LGBT", and don't care about marriage as long as they have freedom.
    I don't think that's true, actually... Alternately, it's likely to be based on age demographic... just like het marriage. (Since people get married later nowadays, and might spend much of their 20's being single... so why should they care about marriage at that stage of life?)

    I know a lot of gay people who have been in committed monogamous relationships for years and who are raising children, and to whom a legal marriage contract is vitally important. Then again, that's my demographic, and thus comprises a large number of people I know and spend time with.
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  9. #159
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Spoken like a true J.

    Just because it is good, doesn't mean it can't be better.
    Nuh-uh. Don't go layin' this bullshit on our doorstep.


    Anyway. I'm down with the gays and feel they should do whatever makes them happy. It's nice when two people who love each other can be together. It's nicer when they get all the tax breaks and other perks that the rest of us take for granted. Either way, it's gonna be awesome to tell our grandkids that people actually debated about these things back in the day.
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  10. #160
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0110011001110101 View Post
    It is a twisted and sick thing that should be confined to the shadows and not see the light of day, like many other nasty sexual orientations (pedophilia, zoophilia, necrophilia etc.).

    Now, this does not mean that I hate any or all gay people. I pity the poor bastards that they weren't born right in the head, or were made such by their environment.
    Not sure it can even be "cured", since that doesn't seem to help with any other sexual orientation, either. So I guess it must exist, but it does not mean that it is good.
    Many other unhealthy variations of behavior exist, as well. Some of them are punished while others have been commercialized and forced upon people by liberal media and immoral politicians.
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