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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    I signed the HM Governments e-petition today on this very subject. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions

    I know this country has serious issues. I understand people are disillusioned and the job prospects are shite and even that doing what they did, people may now address the shitty circumstances which let to this but still .. Criminal damage is wrong and if you took part then there is a consequence. However, it's now bitter sweet and the twats we have running this country are saying the police were too hard, the police don't want the cuts to funding and were doing the best they could in the situation and now people are up in arms about the length of sentences these looters are getting. Lets the mud slinging continue.

    This country is too soft and it's a joke. ohh, i think there is an e-petition to bring back capital punishment. Lol.

    *Little Rant Over*

    Edit - You could fine people but if they don't pay then it just goes to court again. Great, continue wasting the tax payers money
    Get people to do voluntary work .. Hahaha. Who would enforce it?
    I dont think capital punishment is a joke but I do agree that the country is too soft or at least is perceived that way by the criminal fraternity, both domestic and immigrant, I wouldnt be surprised, depending on how this plays out, if foreign gangs believed they could come in a steal under the cover of domestic troubles which are easily ignited.

    The thing about the police and cuts is that I believe the government is trying to compell some sort of cuts to the upper echelons wage bills, they are leaving it to the service themselves to see how it will be made, so it will probably be front line officers who disappear rather than boardroom pay reductions.

    Objectively while police interventions may shorten the time riotting is taking to disappear it doesnt stop it from beginning in the first place, what causes it to begin is something else, the consequences in terms of sentencing and policy IS important because it will influence whether or not people believe they'll do it again at the next available opportunity.

    The apparent inconsistency between wanting a strong, swift response and serious consequences and then complaining about it once it happens is a uniquely british thing I think, its indicative of just how confused people are about authority here and its deployment, they want discipline, they just hope that it'll magically appear rather than having to do the hard work of building it over years and the bad feeling that could involve for the those deploying it because they really would rather abdide by the popular libertarian anything goes and the state is the bad guy philosophy.

  2. #12
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So you guys are thinking more along the lines of crime and punishment or criminal justice responses than any sort of social policy change or reform of the "social contract" which the benefits system is supposed to be a part of?
    yes
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    This may sound stupid but I think that there ought to be some sort of commendation or recognition of the people who did the right thing during the rioting, there was one eighty or something like that old guy who was kicked to death by a sixteen year old because he tried to put out a fire that they had set to destroy the place, another guys son was killed trying to defend the family business and that guy made an appeal for calm and peace rather than retaliation when it happened. Those are people who exhibited a social conscience and it cost them dearly, their lives, their kid's life.

    I'm sure there's other examples which havent even been reported or considered, someone set up a facebook page for supporting the authorities against rioters, he attracted the attention of hackers who made his life miserable and others who posted stuff about him online.

    I'd like it if some of the people who evidenced the fact that the country isnt full of people who think its a free for all and who'll steal at a moments notice got a profile too.

  4. #14
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This may sound stupid but I think that there ought to be some sort of commendation or recognition of the people who did the right thing during the rioting, there was one eighty or something like that old guy who was kicked to death by a sixteen year old because he tried to put out a fire that they had set to destroy the place, another guys son was killed trying to defend the family business and that guy made an appeal for calm and peace rather than retaliation when it happened. Those are people who exhibited a social conscience and it cost them dearly, their lives, their kid's life.

    I'm sure there's other examples which havent even been reported or considered, someone set up a facebook page for supporting the authorities against rioters, he attracted the attention of hackers who made his life miserable and others who posted stuff about him online.

    I'd like it if some of the people who evidenced the fact that the country isnt full of people who think its a free for all and who'll steal at a moments notice got a profile too.
    I agree, to stand up to injustice in the face of adversity is truly heroic and worthy of recognition
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Laws aren't salt water taffy. They're not meant to be stretched by personal value systems.
    That's all laws are though.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'd like it if some of the people who evidenced the fact that the country isnt full of people who think its a free for all and who'll steal at a moments notice got a profile too.
    I'd like it if you would try to understand the motivations of the rioters before making hasty generalizations about their behavior. Your claims have so far amounted to you disliking them or deciding to trump them as in the wrong or acting juvenile; and that's okay when a person has to make a quick decision about how to treat a situation because that's required in doing so, but here you're not doing anything about it (you're a third-person observer, not second or first) and it makes you look petty, like you're seeing yourself as threatened by this when it likely has nothing to do with you on the very personal level that you take it as.

    So why do your arguments always seem to centrally involve you generalizing other people's motivations and behavior? There are more objective styles of rhetoric that can give you other points of view, if you actually care about them.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    I'd like it if you would try to understand the motivations of the rioters before making hasty generalizations about their behavior. Your claims have so far amounted to you disliking them or deciding to trump them as in the wrong or acting juvenile; and that's okay when a person has to make a quick decision about how to treat a situation because that's required in doing so, but here you're not doing anything about it (you're a third-person observer, not second or first) and it makes you look petty, like you're seeing yourself as threatened by this when it likely has nothing to do with you on the very personal level that you take it as.

    So why do your arguments always seem to centrally involve you generalizing other people's motivations and behavior? There are more objective styles of rhetoric that can give you other points of view, if you actually care about them.
    * counts to ten *

    Right, I'll assume the stock, by now, response that engaging in attributing reasoning styles and conclusions to others rather than accepting what they have to say or asking their opinions is NOT DISCUSSING A TOPIC is going to be a waste of time with you, so, I'll see if I can play a game of socratic dialogue with you to provoke some insights about the bullshit you've just written.

    If, as you say, I am engaging in generalisations about the behaviour of others then are you not also? If you dont believe you are, why are you not? How does your conclusion differ from mine? And further why is your conclusion valid while mine is not?

    On what basis do you conclude that I have made, in your words "hasty generalisations"? In what way are you using the word haste? I have had days and lots of sources of information to reach the conclusions which I have, including first person accounts, I dont know how this can amount to "hasty" although I'm open to your response. I'm sure you'll have one and this hasnt just been a case of knee jerk emoting.

    You suggest that my opinions on rioting amount to a personal dislike, arising from the unwarranted experience of feeling personally threatened, on what basis do you reach this conclusion? What information about me personally would you need to reach such a conclusion and would you have it from the posts in this thread? Is this analysis specific to me or one which you would attribute with a wider scope? For instance applying this analysis to years of law, philosophy, political discourse and literature then it is all a thinnly veiled pretext for the venting of personal grievances or anxieties. If it is specific to me, well, I question your ability to reach that conclusion and also I question your motive for doing so, it seems quite personally vindictive. If it is not specific to me, well, you surely see how absurd that kind of extreme subjectivism is, although should this be your point, I'm glad, its good to be petty like Socrates, Plato, Aristotale and all that band.

    I am unsure what you believe your trump card is in your point about rhetoric, it is presumptious in the extreme but I will answer your question, my arguments "seem" to centrally involve generalisng other people's motivations and behaviour because you are deliberately misreading my posts and attempting to engage in character assasination, there's plenty of evidence in my posts to invalidate your premise, a simple one is the verbatim quotes from rioters themselves when reaching conclusions about their behaviour, as opposed to simply suggesting or attributing thoughts to them.

    How are you enjoying trolling today?

  8. #18
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Taking away rioters benefits is a classic example of ill thought through populism. The problem with politicians these days is they follow opinion rather than lead opinion. It is the very reason David Cameron has gone from hug a hoodie to believing stripping looters and rioters of their benefits.

    Stripping looters and rioters of their benefit is not only counter-productive but it would also undermines the law of the land. If one was stripped of their benefits for looting and rioting how exactly are they suppose to live without resorting to crime, after all prisoners have food and heated accommodation?

    Instead of having a flawed wild west mentality it would be more proactive to try to understand why such a large section of society felt they had reached such depths that they had nothing to lose by participating in the despicable violence witnessed last week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Stripping looters and rioters of their benefit is not only counter-productive but it would also undermines the law of the land. If one was stripped of their benefits for looting and rioting how exactly are they suppose to live without resorting to crime, after all prisoners have food and heated accommodation?
    Destitution could make people resort to crime.

    What do you think its going to take for people to resort to work, lawfulness and personal responsibility or a social conscience?

    Instead of having a flawed wild west mentality it would be more proactive to try to understand why such a large section of society felt they had reached such depths that they had nothing to lose by participating in the despicable violence witnessed last week
    Would it? Why? How do you know they had reached such depths? Is that not projecting your own values and thinking on to another? I mean I presume from your saying that that you assume one would have to reach a certain "depth" in order to feel you had nothing to lose by violence, what if those involved did not think violence was despicable but thought it was exciting instead? A lot of the CCTV footage of pulling innocent commuters of their mopeds and riding off on it while your buddies rob them dont seem to give the appearence of individuals who are in a low mood or in despair.

    I remember seeing footage and pictures from the poll tax riots growing up, I've seen enough rioting on the TV closer to home growing up in Northern Ireland were another sort of grievance exists, that LOOKS different to what I've seen this last while, instead of happy smiling, laughing, excited thugs there are people with their faces twisted by rage, anger and hopelessness.

    Mind you, it could be that I just dislike rioters and feel threatened by them. If you buy that armchair psychologist BULLSHIT.

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