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  1. #21
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.
    This isn't so simple as he is trying to make it. These guys paying 15% could easily move to a tax heaven and end up paying nothing in case government decides to make their life harder. Careful with easy solutions, yankees.
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  2. #22
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    This isn't so simple as he is trying to make it. These guys paying 15% could easily move to a tax heaven and end up paying nothing in case government decides to make their life harder. Careful with easy solutions, yankees.
    That same argument could be made for any raise in taxes. Yes, some might move their money to tax shelters if they determine it is worth the effort, but not all of them. Just because there is a potential way around it does not take away from its viability as a solution. At worst, it makes it an incomplete solution since something should probably be done about tax shelters as well.

    Before you get all worked up about how the rich will abandon us if we raise taxes by any amount, Warren Buffet got rich from investing when taxes were much higher than they are now, and raising taxes on investing will not cause a massive exodus of rich people. If it does, there are plenty of ambitious people who will see the opportunities left in their wake.

    Taxes used to be much higher than they are now, and people were still successful in starting businesses and making money. To say raising the tax rate on millionaires is "punishing success" is ridiculous because they still make more money in a year than most people will make in a lifetime. If government taxes are preventing you from buying a private jet, my heart bleeds for you I'm sorry. No one wants to pay taxes, but everyone wants running water and education.
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  3. #23
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    That same argument could be made for any raise in taxes. Yes, some might move their money to tax shelters if they determine it is worth the effort, but not all of them. Just because there is a potential way around it does not take away from its viability as a solution. At worst, it makes it an incomplete solution since something should probably be done about tax shelters as well.

    Before you get all worked up about how the rich will abandon us if we raise taxes by any amount, Warren Buffet got rich from investing when taxes were much higher than they are now, and raising taxes on investing will not cause a massive exodus of rich people. If it does, there are plenty of ambitious people who will see the opportunities left in their wake.

    Taxes used to be much higher than they are now, and people were still successful in starting businesses and making money. To say raising the tax rate on millionaires is "punishing success" is ridiculous because they still make more money in a year than most people will make in a lifetime. If government taxes are preventing you from buying a private jet, my heart bleeds for you I'm sorry. No one wants to pay taxes, but everyone wants running water and education.
    You have good points.
    Thing is speculation is much different from investing. The futures markets are very decentralized nowadays. These traders could legally live in Monaco and do the same thing they do in US without paying a single cent. They have options. And these options would get more appealing. I agree that they should be paying more but...what if they don't agree? lol
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  4. #24
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    That same argument could be made for any raise in taxes. Yes, some might move their money to tax shelters if they determine it is worth the effort, but not all of them. Just because there is a potential way around it does not take away from its viability as a solution. At worst, it makes it an incomplete solution since something should probably be done about tax shelters as well.
    But what happens then, is more control by the government, and the rally cry or "less freedom". Which will keep people blaming government for all the problems, and continue to provide the excuse that the rich were driven out by such a "repressive" system.
    Plus, they could probably find ways around that. After all, big business and government are often in bed with each other anyway, rather then being the total enemies people make them out to be.

    Before you get all worked up about how the rich will abandon us if we raise taxes by any amount, Warren Buffet got rich from investing when taxes were much higher than they are now, and raising taxes on investing will not cause a massive exodus of rich people. If it does, there are plenty of ambitious people who will see the opportunities left in their wake.

    Taxes used to be much higher than they are now, and people were still successful in starting businesses and making money. To say raising the tax rate on millionaires is "punishing success" is ridiculous because they still make more money in a year than most people will make in a lifetime. If government taxes are preventing you from buying a private jet, my heart bleeds for you I'm sorry. No one wants to pay taxes, but everyone wants running water and education.
    True. If they don't want their positions for less money than they make, there are plenty of people, struggling with less money in lesser positions, who would be glad to take what would still be a great pay increase, even with all the taxes and restrictions.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The general public isn't smart enough to see that the Republican party uses religion as a show to mask their real intention of robbing people blind.
    I'm always wary of saying "the general public" when all things considered I'm often a member of the general public, if you can reach that sort of conclusion dont you think its just possible that others can too?

    The days of cultural conservatism are pretty much past, that was big back when bush jr took the helm, its not the christian coalition pulling the strings now its the tea party and I think the US has moved on, its fiscal conservatism now.

  6. #26
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    The general public isn't smart enough to see that the Republican party uses religion as a show to mask their real intention of robbing people blind.


    I fail to understand how desiring to keep a larger portion of the money you earned is robbery.

    Unless you actually believe that the less wealthy are entitled to money they didn't earn.

    This train of thought is especially ridiculous given the fact that fully half the American public doesn't have to pay income taxes.

    Of course you're going to want more programs and higher taxes when you're not the one funding it but still gaining all the benefits.

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post


    I fail to understand how desiring to keep a larger portion of the money you earned is robbery.

    Unless you actually believe that the less wealthy are entitled to money they didn't earn.
    I think we are debating what is earned, rather than suggesting giving to those who haven't earned. I don't really believe the super rich earned their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This train of thought is especially ridiculous given the fact that fully half the American public doesn't have to pay income taxes.
    But they pay a bunch of other taxes that are more regressive than income taxes, i,e, effect the poor more than the rich. The old "half don't pay taxes" meme is trite.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Of course you're going to want more programs and higher taxes when your not the one funding it but still gaining all the benefits.
    Making an assumption about their character, presuming it's the reason for the argument, implying it delegitimizes the argument. That's ad hominem.
    But to defend myself, at least, I've never complained about taxes. I would say yes to paying for more if I believed it was going into programs I supported. On the other hand, I had a long stretch of time where I could have signed up for benefits, and I didn't.
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  8. #28
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    I don't really believe the super rich earned their money.
    What qualifies as super rich to you?

    But they pay a bunch of other taxes that are more regressive than income taxes, i,e, effect the poor more than the rich. The old "half don't pay taxes" meme is trite.
    The pot has officially called the kettle black.

    Those are all state taxes.

    If you don't like em move.

    Making an assumption about their character, presuming it's the reason for the argument, implying it delegitimizes the argument. That's ad hominem.
    But to defend myself, at least, I've never complained about taxes. I would say yes to paying for more if I believed it was going into programs I supported. On the other hand, I had a long stretch of time where I could have signed up for benefits, and I didn't.
    You're making no sense and picking up speed.

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What qualifies as super rich to you?
    Well, once classification I know of says the super rich are people with multi-million dollar personal values who make excess of $350,000 a year in income. Let's go with that. It's a group mainly comprised of business owners, finance managers, celebrities, and political politicians.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The pot has officially called the kettle black.

    Those are all state taxes.

    If you don't like em move.
    That they are state taxes is utter irrelevant. They exist, and they will likely continue to exist because they are quite practical (And changing them broadly would almost certainly require the kind of federal action you despise). They are regressive in their impact. Nearly everyone pays them. All those things are what matters, because they make your point that most people don't pay taxes stupid. Most of the people you claim don't pay taxes do and shall continue to be burdened by these taxes harder than the ones getting an income tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You're making no sense and picking up speed.
    Explain what part of what I said didn't make sense.
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  10. #30
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Of course Buffett supports higher taxes on the rich. Buffett relies on the government to provide him with business opportunities (to profit from the losses of the poor) where he wouldn't have them in a more free market economy.

    Taxes are more like a finder's fee for him and his ilk.

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    The Wall Street Journal reported on March 20, 2012: “Warren Buffett, considered a sage investor and chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., said in an interview with CNBC-TV last month that he would buy up ‘a couple hundred thousand’ single-family homes if he could do so easily, given the high yields on rental investments.”
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