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  1. #81
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    What if...when you harm someone or shoot someone or humilate someone...you feel the same pain in equal measure?

    Like you kick someone in the leg, and your leg hurts. You feel some kind of empathy, not only in direct reciprocity or reaction to your action, but in actions of all beings against one another.

    And in observing others, you feel not only the pain of the receiver, but the pain of the perpretrator, realizing within your self the seeds of all evil.

    How would your physical connection be different?

    Further, these are social and socio-economic problems bred from enculturation. Yet, if our ape-mind is forever chained to the habit of aggression, a physical/ technological inter-link may not be the only solution.

    If one is keen on self-observation, there are definite sensations generated immediately upon harming others.
    For starters, technologically connected you could have an understanding mentally with each other and understand what each other thought/wanted. What you are talking about is extreme empathy, and the pain you feel from hurting others is guilt. Its a level of connection, but not quite what I am talking about.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  2. #82
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Saving a buck and enculturation

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    I was browsing on FB and one of my friends posted this link about Ron Paul

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...id-opposition/

    And a lot of people were just focusing on the fact that he is cutting aid for Israel. But its not JUST Israel, its everyone. Posting really negative comments :|

    Personally I think we should cut foreign aid. We don't have money as it is and we are struggling ourselves as a country. I don't see what the big deal is! What makes Israel so special that we should completely deny a bill to cut foreign aid? Until we can support ourselves I don't think we should be helping everyone else out, makes us look DUMB. I can't think of a reason other than religion that makes people so upset about this. I'm hoping there is a more logical reason other than religion... anyone want to enlighten me?
    Hey, we can see you are short of a buck these days so we have decided to help your Defence Budget. Yes, we are opening Australian military bases for you under joint Australian and American administration, for an acorn a year.

    And as you change your military posture from the Middle East to the South China Sea, you will save a motza in Oz.

    But try not to make the same mistake you make everywhere else. Realise American culture and Australian culture are different. Realise yours is a one dimensional culture while ours is a multi dimensional culture. This means on first blush our culture is invisible to you. So in taking up your military posture here, you need to learn to see, and hear and feel a different culure - a multi dimensional culture.

    Hey, not only will we save you a motza, we will enculturate you as well.

  3. #83
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    When countries turn to Australia for cultural enrichment they're beyond help.

  4. #84
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    For starters, technologically connected you could have an understanding mentally with each other and understand what each other thought/wanted. What you are talking about is extreme empathy, and the pain you feel from hurting others is guilt. Its a level of connection, but not quite what I am talking about.
    I read about such things in Science fiction, and there are different versions of what you describe. There's the borg on Star Trek, where everyone is forced to be a part of it. In other science fiction versions, only the very rich can afford to implant themselves and their staff with it. In some books, it is injected nano-technology. In one book, it is engineered biologicals that gain collective intelligence at the molecular level, and then spread like disease. In some books, only elite military have it. In one book, it was like a connection to the internet, except it was inside your head. So there is a great deal of speculation on how this will come about and what it will do. In many "visions of the future" this kind of manipulation doesn't lead to peace.

    In other books, such as some science fiction and mystical books, the thing occurs in the persons themselves. That is, the biology of the human itself, in the neural tissue or our ability to control our own electricity.

    Someone on the Buddhist forum sent me 11 hours of tapes on Vipassana years ago, and I don't practice it much, but in this type of meditation, you examine the sensations of the body in very great detail. Supposedly, you can become aware down to the level of kalapas. When you become aware, and you do harm, there is a definite penalty which shows up as sensations of the body.

    This is different than conditioned or encultured guilt. Guilt produces certain sensations in me. Interaction with others produces various sensations interpreted in the mind. Some sensations I like and some I do not. Not everything is guilt. Observations of things happening between people where I am blameless still produces sensation.

    Vipassanā (or insight meditation) is available now. However, whether you get technology implants, evolve, inject yourself with nanotechnology, or develop awareness of increasingly fine layers of bodily sensation through Vipassanā, or whatever, I hope you will gain some empathy so that you won't want to jettison the poor.

    If people were aware in the way I describe, using Vipassanā or whatever, I don't think there would be people killing each other over religion...or much people killing each other for any reason. I doubt there would be extremely unequal distribution of resources either.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    By the same logic you might say: "Why have any taxes at all?"
    Pardon me, but you forget that taxation is forced. If you disagree what is done with your taxes, and you stop to pay them....you will die.
    Let me rephrase that because you might have missed the steps.
    You disagree, so you stop paying taxes. The results you get fined, you you refuse to pay it, you get arrested. If you refuse to get arrested, you get beaten. If you defend yourself against getting beaten....you die(or jailed if you survive).

    There is a system called voluntairy taxation, where one would have more local control on how the taxes are spent.
    It hasen't been tried, not because its not viable or anything....but it requires the ones with the money to enact on policies the people agree with, and be fiscally conservative. It's harder to lobby individuals, then it is a central point where power is over the money.

    The only case where one could make an argument on forced taxation is national defence and the justice system. But still then the argument 'because it is neccesairy' will be used to expand the role of taxation.

    The power to forcibly tax, brings a more centralised power. Every centralised power, which is further removed of the individual, is more likely to be corrupted. No exceptions

  6. #86
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Pardon me, but you forget that taxation is forced. If you disagree what is done with your taxes, and you stop to pay them....you will die.
    Let me rephrase that because you might have missed the steps.
    You disagree, so you stop paying taxes. The results you get fined, you you refuse to pay it, you get arrested. If you refuse to get arrested, you get beaten. If you defend yourself against getting beaten....you die(or jailed if you survive).

    There is a system called voluntairy taxation, where one would have more local control on how the taxes are spent.
    It hasen't been tried, not because its not viable or anything....but it requires the ones with the money to enact on policies the people agree with, and be fiscally conservative. It's harder to lobby individuals, then it is a central point where power is over the money.

    The only case where one could make an argument on forced taxation is national defence and the justice system. But still then the argument 'because it is neccesairy' will be used to expand the role of taxation.

    The power to forcibly tax, brings a more centralised power. Every centralised power, which is further removed of the individual, is more likely to be corrupted. No exceptions
    Taxes serve a purpose that has to be viewen in a big picture. America is still the epitome of liberal capitalism and liberal means in german "power to the companies". it still has the idea of "Bigger, better, faster, richer" and supports the creation of mega - companies who at some point make the law themselves.

    The intended circle is that people and companies pay taxes to the state, which on the other hand provides social security to people and invests in companies who want to innovate or embark on new markets. The people themselves live from the products the companies make and at the same time get paied by the companies.

    It is a kinda meaningless circle because it isnt about granting individuals the maximum amount of power, it is about involving as many people as possible in the circle and by that enable them to live.

    You'll always need a sort of state as a balancing force, its like the neutral bystander who watches that people and companies behave and at times invests in one of them. Taxes are necessary to keep this circle alive and it is never about the individual only, it is about the interconnection and community of all the people.

    American philosophy often promotes that the single individual can attain everything he or she wants. That is a good philosophy and I like it, but one has to watch it that it doesnt become egoistical and it often does. All this paranoia about being attacked that is so 1960, I mean who on Earth could defeat America in a War ? Nobody and except for religious idiots there is hardly someone who wants that. This sort of paranoia is produced by conservative egoism that always has the primarily goal to maximize the own feeling of security. America has become famous in the World for its risks takers who embarked on new markets with huge amounts of investments and who succeeded or who lost. But somehow it has become a bunch of neo-anarchist states hiding behind their fences and insulting the neighbours of using ones own garbage bin.

    There are a lot of solutions to the persisting crisis but all of them point to more cooperation and I mean worldwide.

    In Europe we are stranded, the sum of european states wants these Eurobonds, which means that you'll loose all if you invest into a malfunctioning european state and the investment goes wrong. Since Germany is the main investor for everything we are pushed by the others to sign this contract tho it will lead most definitly to us loosing a lot of money. It's important for us to take on more responsibility in Europe, so we will probably do it, but it requires my country to attain a complete new level of thinking.

    The circle I described in the beginning always worked for us, but within a certain area; now signs are telling that this area will become more and more globalized and expand a lot in the long run. Then we will see if our system still works but having the courage now to say we will embark onto new ways and we will share what we earned only by ourselves will take us to new borders or be our undoing.

    I am a fierce promoter of a much closer american and european market. Maybe even an own currency and you can call it dollar if you want. That would help the actual dollar and make european procudts a bit more affordable again. American KnowHow in Software and Electronics combined with german industrial infrastructure and machining capabilities could emerge on whole new levels and markets.

    There are so many ideas on how to get out of this crisis and I think its our duty as a young generation to be much much more enthusiastic and naive about this, instead of always running around pointing fingers at each others in arguement and quoting dead philosophers..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #87
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Pardon me, but you forget that taxation is forced. If you disagree what is done with your taxes, and you stop to pay them....you will die.

    Are you joking or have you not read my other posts in this thread?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Are you joking or have you not read my other posts in this thread?
    I might not have, read so many things these last few days that posters start blending together, so I just see a particular post I wanted to respond to

  9. #89
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    I might not have, read so many things these last few days that posters start blending together, so I just see a particular post I wanted to respond to
    Okay. Thanks. I pay taxes.

    In a previous post, I suggested increasing taxes on the rich, and practically eliminating taxes on the middle class. Someone (Elfboy, and another person) said that is stealing. Why is that stealing? If that is stealing, then all taxes are stealing. It is simply a different tax structure.

  10. #90
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    You are correct, all taxes are essentialy theft. You can tell by the nature of the response if you refuse to pay it. People unfortunatly ignore that fact because it could do good.
    Now when it comes to the wealthy(not rich), higher taxation is good and dandy but they have the methods to evade it, simply because they have the economic means to. What you want to do is change the regulatory systems, the taxation system, monitary system....so it becomes beneficial for all that capital to go back into the economy. You have to entice them to invest the money, and spend it on their own soil, and not other countries.

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