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  1. #71
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    interesting, so you don't believe in individual expression, thought, or integrity. I could talk about how this makes my Fi flare up like wildfire after a drought, but that wouldn't convince you because you are unable to comprehend any kind of individual values.
    I think you are drawing your own incorrect conclusions to what it is I personally believe. And you say I am unable to comprehend individual values, why because I am INFJ? You do know that MBTI is really a soft science right? That no one truly fits any type description? That type is more like "guidelines" then rules? Dont make the mistake of using MBTI as proof of anything outside of its system of discussion it rapidly breaks down when describing any individual, in fact WITHIN its realm of discussion it breaks down, especially when you consider that any action, comment or thought can be ascribed to any number of subjective analyzations regarding their origin of cognitive function.

    for this reason, I'm going to stick to logical points and deductive reasoning
    wouldn't really call it logical.


    - the system you propose is impossible. people would find ways to elude those in power. there has never been a time in human history where an authority has been able to force 100% of a population into compliance
    I think you are missing the big picture view of what I am suggesting. In such a system, power becomes irrelevant. Just because humans of a technologically inferior stage did A, doesn't mean humans of a technologically superior age will do A. Especially once they have taken their evolution into their own hands.

    - people will always defend their individuality and personal, individual freedoms. the world you speak of could not exist unless every single person was given this vaccine or whatever it is
    What vaccine? I am talking about grafting technology into the human body. Imagine if medical science could make you live for 300 years by giving you nano-medicinal viruses of a machine nature to peruse your body and repair flaws? The human lifespan that much longer would radically change our culture as we know it on its own. But by that same token now imagine if they could implant a chip into your body that allowed you to access a global wifi network thats a million times faster and richer then the internet as we know it now, and if we can all tap into that, then we can all tap into one and other, in other words we would become telepathic beings, speaking in thoughts and images to one and other instead of words and languages. Imagine if form that point you would retain your own mind/body but you would also be a part of everybody elses, maybe some "over-mind" would evolve out of this, out of all collective human desires. Because face it, at our core, humans are not nearly as diverse as we like to pretend, our differences are downright fucking petty at best. Ultimately we all want the same things, to survive, to advance, to learn. We stand a much better chance of that together then divided, so naturally that would make some form of logical sense. It doesnt mean who you are is wiped out, it just means who you are grows into something much more complex.

    - there are people you just can't beat. some people will do whatever it takes to achieve their ends. society has 2 ways to deal with such people. they can try to control them and force them to retaliate, or they can provide an environment where they can use their competitiveness, drive, industry and ambition to help society via setting up businesses and
    Again, you are thinking too short sightedly. In a future where we are all intimately connected mentally, the drive to succeed is less individually based and more team based, humans would think in terms of the species, not in terms of how rich they can get which is a by-product of our recently evolving from apes and needing to be the alpha to produce the most mates with the females etc. In a super technologically advanced species where evolution is exponentiating along with technology, there is little need for competition, since we are all striving for the same ultimate goals. At that point in time our species would move into assimilating more life and intelligence, not wealth, our goal would be for mutual survival by spreading our cosmic eggs into more cosmic baskets, think about space exploration and colonization, not for profit margins but for human survival.

    - who would enforce this?
    Reply hazy, please ask again... but seriously, who knows? I assume the over mind would. The over mind of course being the shared goals of all humans who are a part of this system. This about Fi and Fe becoming one entity in all beings, if you need to see it in MBTI scale. We already basically share core principals as a species. People already do this on a low tech end, god bless google. I cant live without my iphone or ipad, I am connected 24/7 to a massive source of data, sure I am disconnected physically, but imagine if we didnt need laptops and tablets if our brains were all just tapped into one and other. It would be noisy for a while, but after as while it would calm down as we all began to find our old wants and desires to be less important and less interesting as we evolve past them.


    - your proposed system would crush any kind of ingenuity, technological progress or societal advancement. without individual thought, innovation is impossible
    Well you shouldn't look at it as a "system" a system politically is something that is controlled and requires authority and people of individualized natures to participate in. Evolution is something that ultimately cannot be controlled only hastened or slowed. Hastened by embracing technology, slowed by refusing it. Ingenuity is a part of the human psyche, you couldnt crush it if you tried. And while forcing everyone to comply TODAY in our current tread of history might slow innovation, in the time period I am thinking of, innovative ideas would be shared much faster, data and knowledge would spread much faster, reducing the need for innovation since innovation will be a staple, something we take for granted.

    the most selfish people are the ones who have the most potential to do good for other people if you let them.
    - you have to think in terms of incentives. your system incentivizes people to elude the law and even to seek to destroy it. you would have better luck traveling to the middle east and trying to force 100% of the population to become Christian. people will have no choice but to retaliate, and retaliate more violently than all the rest of the wars in world history combined.
    - those who did not take the pill/vaccine would overtake those who did, and who could blame them
    This is all essentially irrelevant to the topic.


    - since you want us to be thinking like a species, a species needs a leader, a leader must think like an individual. your proposed plan creates a population of 100% followers who are thus unable to make decisions and will head for disaster.
    No, right NOW we need leaders, because most people are cut off from incoming data and knowledge they have very limited sources to learn from. They rely on family, culture, religion, government. In the place I am speaking of, those things all become obsolete. Leaders become obsolete.


    - individual thought is the only reason we have society in the first place. without it, we'd still be hunter gatherers. honest businessmen produce more for society than any other profession. it is 100% impossible to be a successful businessman while being a slave to a group.
    - without successful businessmen, your system would atrophy and die a slow, painful death by economic depression
    ....I could go on for hours.
    I think you missed almost everything I was getting at... you keep looking only at how things are today, with our current technological setup, with our current rate of growth, with our current rate of progress, and current cultural norms... you are not considering how much technological advancement can and will change everything.

    Case in point, it was the advancement of technology in the capturing of fire and the advent of language that brought us society. Every step forward through history has been brought on by technological advancement. To deny this would be folly.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  2. #72
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    - basically you are saying that you desire a world in which everyone is an Fe user and thinks in terms of the group
    - your system takes away everything that separates us from animals other than raw intelligence
    - incentives are VERY relevant to this topic. millions if not billions of people would fight against your system to the death. incentives are relevant because they would prevent the possibility of your proposed system coming to fruition in the first place. it is only irrelevant after your system comes to pass.
    - you are not incapable of understanding individual values because you are INFJ, I am saying you are based on the fact that your system deems them as unimportant and wishes to eradicate them. if you had any comprehension of individual values, you would understand their importance and contribution to society. individual thought is the only reason why we have civil rights in the first place.
    - there are types of happiness, fulfillment and enlightenment that can only be attained through integrity, personal values, personal accomplishment and independent thought. your system deprives people of any means to attain true happiness outside of shallow social acceptance and validation
    - your system has no respect for human individuality, thus, no inherent respect for humans. logically, by that train of thought, it would be better to eradicate humans completely and replace them with machines who could do the job better.
    - I am considering how technology is advancing. we are witnessing an era where the internet and individuals are becoming more powerful than governments. a trend of decentralization is spreading across the globe like a wild fire. hackers have become powerful enough to take over governments, but the government has no grip online, nor can it possibly get one. on the other hand, the internet makes controlling individuals nearly impossible due to anonymity.
    - you on the other hand are attempting to claim with certainty trends that will being taking place over 300 years in the future. logically, I am skeptical of your ability to do so. so no, I am not looking 300 years into the future because doing so is impossible
    - individualists are the only people who contribute to society. collectivists are useless parasites that feed off of the results of others or have other feed off of them and die off. they create win/lose or lose/win scenarios; individualists create win/win scenarios because they encourage trade and mutual benefit as opposed to pure giving or taking in which one party is bound to lose
    - yes, technological advancement has brought on every advance in human society, we completely agree here, but every technological advance in turn was brought about by individuals who were independent and thought for themselves. technology supports human individuality and has for 1000s of years. technology can make single individuals extremely powerful, thus, controlling large groups of people becomes more and more difficult and thus human rights have come to fruition
    - how could we possibly not need leaders? every social animal needs leaders
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  3. #73
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    You keep missing the points I am making either intentionally or unintentionally, either way you are only here to argue while consistently failing to add anything remotely interesting to the discussion. Peace. Also, youre wrong.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  4. #74
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I did not have time to fully read Elfboy and Billy since I'm at lunch.

    Elfboy: 80% still leaves people with over $200,000 per year, which is at least four times the per capita income...and way more than enough to have a happy generous life with houses, fast cars, multiple flat screen TVs or whatever. So someone make $1 billion would have $200 million after taxes, which is basically enough to buy slaves or anything one could imagine.

    Am I really offerring this as a viable solution? Not sure. But ask yourself whether a person needs to consume more than $200,000 per year to be happy?

    I watched some videos, "China Rises". One rich guy there used his wealth to build a mansion. In this he has kennels for almost every kind of pedigree type of dog. The dogs are imprisoned, but the cages are clean. Basically it's like visiting the pound. Why does he need it? Frankly, he does not.

    If the rich run this country as their private game to get richer, then what do they need it all that money for? Why do they need so many resources? Could those resources be better used to make a better society for all?


    Billy: I feel already connected. I'm sorry you do not. Actually, I think everyone is connected, but one is either callous to it or they are not. Perhaps they are unaware of it.

    The type of peace I describe may occur when those in it's true advocacy gain absolute power.

  5. #75
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    I did not have time to fully read Elfboy and Billy since I'm at lunch.

    Elfboy: 80% still leaves people with over $200,000 per year, which is at least four times the per capita income...and way more than enough to have a happy generous life with houses, fast cars, multiple flat screen TVs or whatever. So someone make $1 billion would have $200 million after taxes, which is basically enough to buy slaves or anything one could imagine.

    Am I really offerring this as a viable solution? Not sure. But ask yourself whether a person needs to consume more than $200,000 per year to be happy?

    I watched some videos, "China Rises". One rich guy there used his wealth to build a mansion. In this he has kennels for almost every kind of pedigree type of dog. The dogs are imprisoned, but the cages are clean. Basically it's like visiting the pound. Why does he need it? Frankly, he does not.

    If the rich run this country as their private game to get richer, then what do they need it all that money for? Why do they need so many resources? Could those resources be better used to make a better society for all?


    Billy: I feel already connected. I'm sorry you do not. Actually, I think everyone is connected, but one is either callous to it or they are not. Perhaps they are unaware of it.

    The type of peace I describe may occur when those in it's true advocacy gain absolute power.
    Feeling connected and BEING PHYSICALLY connected are 2 different animals.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  6. #76
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    If someone earned their own money, why should anyone take it away from them?

  7. #77
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Cut foreign aid ? You mean in the future, when Germany has helped Greece, Ireland, Spain, Great-Britain and launched their first nuke on Swiss because they didnt stop saying "we told you Europe sucks" ?

    Gonna see, for America I always have some cents spare
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  8. #78
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    If someone earned their own money, why should anyone take it away from them?
    Because the means by which you "earn" your money is effectively the same as the one by which it can be taken from you. It is the same system entirely. I never saw how the earning was more legitimate.

    Secondly, it makes sense for someone who is more concerned with consequences, with ultimate utility, than rules of proper conduct or good intentions. We're better off with taxes, that's absolutely clear. I think we're better off still with progressive taxes. The society is better for it. A person being asked to pay taxes may not understand this, however.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #79
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Jelly View Post
    If someone earned their own money, why should anyone take it away from them?
    By the same logic you might say: "Why have any taxes at all?"

    The talk about having medical care like it's a communist notion.

    However, we have usually have public education, police, security, military, roads. Having medical care and various other public services would be no different.

    Thus, we could have a better society if some things were done using resources for the good of all rather than a few.

  10. #80
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Feeling connected and BEING PHYSICALLY connected are 2 different animals.
    What if...when you harm someone or shoot someone or humilate someone...you feel the same pain in equal measure?

    Like you kick someone in the leg, and your leg hurts. You feel some kind of empathy, not only in direct reciprocity or reaction to your action, but in actions of all beings against one another.

    And in observing others, you feel not only the pain of the receiver, but the pain of the perpretrator, realizing within your self the seeds of all evil.

    How would your physical connection be different?

    Further, these are social and socio-economic problems bred from enculturation. Yet, if our ape-mind is forever chained to the habit of aggression, a physical/ technological inter-link may not be the only solution.

    If one is keen on self-observation, there are definite sensations generated immediately upon harming others.

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