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  1. #61
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    they would leave because other countries would tax them less, and they don't want to be taxed at 80%. believe it or not, productive people don't actually like being stolen from
    Ahhhhh...so taxes are stealing! I knew it.

    I was reading Thomas Jefferson's second inagural address the other day.
    At home, fellow-citizens, you best know whether we have done well or ill. The suppression of unnecessary offices, of useless establishments and expenses, enabled us to discontinue our internal taxes. These, covering our land with officers and opening our doors to their intrusions, had already begun that process of domiciliary vexation which once entered is scarcely to be restrained from reaching successively every article of property and produce. If among these taxes some minor ones fell which had not been inconvenient, it was because their amount would not have paid the officers who collected them, and because, if they had any merit, the State authorities might adopt them instead of others less approved.

    The remaining revenue on the consumption of foreign articles is paid chiefly by those who can afford to add foreign luxuries to domestic comforts, being collected on our seaboard and frontiers only, and incorporated with the transactions of our mercantile citizens, it may be the pleasure and the pride of an American to ask, What farmer, what mechanic, what laborer ever sees a taxgatherer of the United States? These contributions enable us to support the current expenses of the Government, to fulfill contracts with foreign nations, to extinguish the native right of soil within our limits, to extend those limits, and to apply such a surplus to our public debts as places at a short day their final redemption, and that redemption once effected the revenue thereby liberated may, by a just repartition of it among the States and a corresponding amendment of the Constitution, be applied in time of peace to rivers, canals, roads, arts, manufactures, education, and other great objects within each State. In time of war, if injustice by ourselves or others must sometimes produce war, increased as the same revenue will be by increased population and consumption, and aided by other resources reserved for that crisis, it may meet within the year all the expenses of the year without encroaching on the rights of future generations by burthening them with the debts of the past. War will then be but a suspension of useful works, and a return to a state of peace, a return to the progress of improvement.
    Thomas Jefferson for President!

    Expense and affairs of government should be paid by those who can afford luxury. I defined this as people who make $100,000 per year or more, and the initial taxes being only 10%, increasing with what you make. I think the lowest tax bracket is like somewhere around 28%, and this is for someone making less than $30,000. I call taking taxes from anyone making less than $100,000 STEALING.

    What you are saying is that only people who make above $100,000 are the productive people, and that if everyone making over $1 million left the US, the country would fall apart...Those are the people who'd get taxed up to 80 percent.

    I think probably all taxes are stealing. This is about equality of human life. What justification is there for an exective making millions of dollars while bankrupting the company...getting bail outs? Is this how you define a productive individual? Why is the farmer and mechanic less productive than the banker, stock broker, corporate fat cat, or senator?

    I guess, since I make less than $100,000 it means I'm not productive?

    I think the word "productive" should be replaced with "greedy" in all of your statements.

    I'm really just playing advocate of a certain point of view here, but I don't understand why higher paid people (people making more than $1 million) are the productive ones and everyone below them is less productive.

  2. #62
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    And that's such a bad thing, right?
    The root problem of today is that people have become pacifistic couch-potatoes, which leaves us with over-population.
    A great war wouldn't only lead to wanton destruction, it will evolve us like it always has.
    The earth needs scorching in order to grow and become better.

    I only hope nobody resorts to nuclear weapons this time around, that would be... Bad.

    If you think of what the last war gave us in terms of social change and technological breakthroughs, say you don't agree at least a little.
    People die all the time, and in reality what cause is greater than the progress of human kind?
    No, it's not bad.
    I agree. We are disgustingly complacent and unhappy right now and this limbo sucks, but we lack the courage, bravery and honor required to bite the bullet.

  3. #63
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    No, it's not bad.
    I agree. We are disgustingly complacent and unhappy right now and this limbo sucks, but we lack the courage, bravery and honor required to bite the bullet.
    I don't think we do, actually. If faced with enough of an external threat, the west will stand together like it has done in the past against threats from Asia. History just repeats itself.
    We might have a slight case of nintendo fingers, but I do think that people will fight to protect their homes. Which will be the case.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  4. #64
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    The US can't cut off foreign aid just like that. People hear things about debts and budget problems, and the first thing they think of is saving money on things they -think- has no effect on themselves. Cut off all foreign aid and see where you'll be in 10 years from now with all the import problems that come with such drastic measures.


    edit: And the world doesn't need scorching in order to evolve. The world needs people in charge that can look past the extent of their own noses.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #65
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Can we, ffs, grow beyond war?

    Probably we'd become something else, but good gravey war is expensive.

    The trouble is peace would require people who saw this vision to have the power to stop wars. It'd be like the Star Trek episode where the aliens made all the war instruments 1000's of degrees, so that niether the Kligons or Capt. Kirk could fire on one another.

    I was reflecting on these post this morning. Instead of global war, we need some other unifying factor like asteroid threat or arrival by aliens. Maybe some global climate catastrophe would do it.

  6. #66
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    We cant grow beyond war, sorry to tell you but we are still animals. As smart as a species as we are, we just aren't there yet in terms of evolution to let go of the integral struggle for survival on a personal level. I think we will amend this as we go with technology, especially if we invent a form of telepathy thats fast and vast enough that we begin to blur the lines between me and you, but until then, we aren't much better then the apes in the jungle who rely on social hierarchies.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  7. #67
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    We cant grow beyond war, sorry to tell you but we are still animals. As smart as a species as we are, we just aren't there yet in terms of evolution to let go of the integral struggle for survival on a personal level. I think we will amend this as we go with technology, especially if we invent a form of telepathy thats fast and vast enough that we begin to blur the lines between me and you, but until then, we aren't much better then the apes in the jungle who rely on social hierarchies.
    if I understand you right, are saying you would advocate the use of technology to induce shared collective values among people and rob them of their individuality and any desire for it?
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  8. #68
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    if I understand you right, are saying you would advocate the use of technology to induce shared collective values among people and rob them of their individuality and any desire for it?
    It is my belief that as our technology expands and grows our individuality will wane and reduce, especially if they ever find a way to wire us all together telepathically via some global wifi network that taps directly into our brains. This is science fiction now, but I believe if a definite possibility in the future long way down the road.

    I am not advocating it, so much as saying that I think its a our natural course of evolution, the merging of humans and technology.

    How hard would it be to kill an "enemy" when you are connected to one and other ultimately and can speak to one and other without language barriers or cultural barriers? I think when the time comes it wont be a forced thing so much as it will be something that comes gradually and we change with it. things like war and individuality will become obsolete because we will have begun thinking like a species instead of individual animals.

    At this point that sounds threatening because we dont have the benefits of those tech achievements all we can see is being robbed of what we already have, but a few thousand years down the road if we survive? Might be a whole new story.

    I think the humans that accept these tech advancements will go on and become more superhuman and continue evolving on the fast track with the technological advancements, for the humans that choose to remain unwired, well I believe they would eventually die off or become some sub-class of inferior people. The question then will be, what will the super humans choose to do with them, will they show compassion (as I believe they would) and allow them to live out the rest of their lives untethered from the fast track of evolution the rest of society will undergo? Or will they destroy or enslave them as menial servants?
    Ground control to Major Tom

  9. #69
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    It is my belief that as our technology expands and grows our individuality will wane and reduce, especially if they ever find a way to wire us all together telepathically via some global wifi network that taps directly into our brains. This is science fiction now, but I believe if a definite possibility in the future long way down the road.
    I am not advocating it, so much as saying that I think its a our natural course of evolution, the merging of humans and technology.
    How hard would it be to kill an "enemy" when you are connected to one and other ultimately and can speak to one and other without language barriers or cultural barriers? I think when the time comes it wont be a forced thing so much as it will be something that comes gradually and we change with it. things like war and individuality will become obsolete because we will have begun thinking like a species instead of individual animals.
    At this point that sounds threatening because we dont have the benefits of those tech achievements all we can see is being robbed of what we already have, but a few thousand years down the road if we survive? Might be a whole new story.
    I think the humans that accept these tech advancements will go on and become more superhuman and continue evolving on the fast track with the technological advancements, for the humans that choose to remain unwired, well I believe they would eventually die off or become some sub-class of inferior people. The question then will be, what will the super humans choose to do with them, will they show compassion (as I believe they would) and allow them to live out the rest of their lives untethered from the fast track of evolution the rest of society will undergo? Or will they destroy or enslave them as menial servants?
    interesting, so you don't believe in individual expression, thought, or integrity. I could talk about how this makes my Fi flare up like wildfire after a drought, but that wouldn't convince you because you are unable to comprehend any kind of individual values. for this reason, I'm going to stick to logical points and deductive reasoning
    - the system you propose is impossible. people would find ways to elude those in power. there has never been a time in human history where an authority has been able to force 100% of a population into compliance
    - people will always defend their individuality and personal, individual freedoms. the world you speak of could not exist unless every single person was given this vaccine or whatever it is
    - there are people you just can't beat. some people will do whatever it takes to achieve their ends. society has 2 ways to deal with such people. they can try to control them and force them to retaliate, or they can provide an environment where they can use their competitiveness, drive, industry and ambition to help society via setting up businesses and
    - who would enforce this?
    - your proposed system would crush any kind of ingenuity, technological progress or societal advancement. without individual thought, innovation is impossible
    - the most selfish people are the ones who have the most potential to do good for other people if you let them.
    - you have to think in terms of incentives. your system incentivizes people to elude the law and even to seek to destroy it. you would have better luck traveling to the middle east and trying to force 100% of the population to become Christian. people will have no choice but to retaliate, and retaliate more violently than all the rest of the wars in world history combined.
    - those who did not take the pill/vaccine would overtake those who did, and who could blame them
    - since you want us to be thinking like a species, a species needs a leader, a leader must think like an individual. your proposed plan creates a population of 100% followers who are thus unable to make decisions and will head for disaster.
    - individual thought is the only reason we have society in the first place. without it, we'd still be hunter gatherers. honest businessmen produce more for society than any other profession. it is 100% impossible to be a successful businessman while being a slave to a group.
    - without successful businessmen, your system would atrophy and die a slow, painful death by economic depression
    ....I could go on for hours.
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  10. #70
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Ahhhhh...so taxes are stealing! I knew it.
    yes, they are. the government is
    - taking money from you by force (albeit, implied force until you decide not to pay)
    - asking you to sacrifice for the sake of others who are undeserving of your support
    - incentivizing people to be non-productive parasites who collect checks
    - incentivizing wasteful spending
    - telling you that they are entitled to 80% of what you make. they are literally taking more from you in that instance than plantation owners did from slaves or feudal lords did from serves
    - this implies that the purpose of the individual is to serve the state. this train of thought inevitably leads to empires, dictators and loss of human rights

    to say 80% tax rates are stealing is a gross understatement
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