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  1. #11
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Gore does a hell of a job making himself look ridiculous. He hardly needs anyone else's help to accomplish that feat. His ability to look foolish is as natural as the fluctuation of the Earth's climate.
    Well, Gore may be an advocate, be he's an advocate speaking for actual science. I tend to believe, say, people who actually study environmental science when it comes to what's going on in the environment. Gore's message is in line with 95% (or more) of theirs.

    To create a metaphor: If I worry about some growth on my body, I ask a doctor, not an IT guy who never studied medicine even once. Further, if I go to 20 doctors, and 19 say "you are sick, you need to buy medicine" and one says "Aw, it's nothing," I'll trust the 19.

    This is how stupid it is to think global warming isn't manmade. You've gone to 20 doctors and only one says it's nothing, and you believe the one.

    Plus, let's look at outcomes.

    1. What happens if we act, and it isn't real: Slightly cleaner air, slightly cleaner water, less dependency on foreign nations for fuel, and maybe some overspending. Overall, not catastrophic. Economic green jobs may help, or maybe it hurts the economy. That's a danger, to be sure. Worst case: moderate to sever economic calamity.

    2. We don't act, it isn't real: Life as usual.

    3. It's real, and we act: We avert or partially avert whatever catastrophe would have occurred, thousands or millions are saved, fewer cities flooded, more clean water for the world, etc.

    4. We don't act, it's real: major cities flood, wars occur over clean water or land that can support agriculture, millions, even billions could die. Economic collapse happens anyways. Clearly the worst case. Again, worst case here: Mass death, severe economic disruption, wars, flooding of major cities, loss of resources, thousands of species die, etc.

    Acting now, just to be safe, is clearly the better bet based on cost/benefit. Also the more well supported bet.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    I understand his anger; the ignorance and apathy of the masses is only leading to the total destruction of the natural planet. People need to realize that there's something called the big picture; what they do in thier immediate lives may seem insignificant and unworthy to them, but on the global scale it has devestating effects. Hopefully Al Gore will find more support in the near future, or better yet, less people will ignore the dangerous problem of global warming.
    Actually, I remember watching that famous Al Gore documentary a few years back and I was amazed with the sheer amount of propaganda portrayed in that documentary as scientific facts.

    There's still stuff people need to figure out about global warming and it's not a bad thing at all to go more green and all that.

    But Al Gore's intentions are not to save the planet, but to amass a political following.

    I remember some of the graphs he showed in that documentary, they were freaking hilarious. I'm not about to push the idea of global warming out of the window completely. But considering the errors made by Al Gore, I was a lot more skeptical about the actual presence of the perceived threat.

    The fact is however, that global warming is a hot topic and hot topics are and always will be used to its fullest potential in order to grab the attention of people politically. Eventually though, and it is already happening, the hot topic cools off, and I wouldn't be amazed if that is what will happen to global warming as well.
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  3. #13
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWRqQ_iI7qQ"]climate change[/YOUTUBE]

    The idea of global warming, and problem thereof, at this moment in time is to find out if the extra release of human made CO2 will have an impact on the already naturally occuring climate changes. Will it speed up the coming of the next ice age, or will it increase the max limit of the ice age?
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #14
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    If the degree of drought and record heat that have occurred this summer, or the insanely (again, as in record-setting since they've been recoreded) large storms, tornadoes or winter storms that have also occurred in the past few years continue, I don't see it cooling off.

    (I will also note I've never seen the documentary. My understanding of the issue come from fully non-Al Gore sorces)
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWRqQ_iI7qQ"]climate change[/YOUTUBE]

    The idea of global warming, and problem thereof, at this moment in time is to find out if the extra release of human made CO2 will have an impact on the already naturally occuring climate changes. Will it speed up the coming of the next ice age, or will it increase the max limit of the ice age?
    CO2 increases photosynthesis. This causes plant life to grow exponentially. This causes huge toxic algal blooms which then die off and are eaten by oxyegenic bacteria. This will deplete the oxygen in the ocean and essentially kill most and eventually all fish life.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_zone_%28ecology%29
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    This is how stupid it is to think global warming isn't manmade. You've gone to 20 doctors and only one says it's nothing, and you believe the one.
    It should be noted that unlike doctors, climatologists have an unimpressive record of success with their predictions. I think they are more analogous to stock brokers than doctors. Their ability is not sufficiently greater than mine to justify deference.

    Even if we accepts that humans are probably responsible for some of the climate change , it still make sense to critically evaluate the "solutions" proposed by special interests which stands to profit.

    Plus, let's look at outcomes.
    This is the classic "Pascal's Wager" argument. "If Hell is real and you failed to convert to Christianity, then you are doomed for eternity............" This line of reasoning is easily discredited.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    It should be noted that unlike doctors, climatologists have an unimpressive record of success with their predictions. I think they are more analogous to stock brokers than doctors. Their ability is not sufficiently greater than mine to justify deference.

    Even if we accepts that humans are probably responsible for some of the climate change , it still make sense to critically evaluate the "solutions" proposed by special interests which stands to profit.



    This is the classic "Pascal's Wager" argument. "If Hell is real and you failed to convert to Christianity, then you are doomed for eternity............" This line of reasoning is easily discredited.
    Whats the matter with profit? The market sees a new way to make money and they are doing it. Do you not like capitalism? What are you some kind of commie?

    I love the logic that because somone is making money off of it it cant be true. Especially when the opposing side is funded by those stalwarts of truth and justice known as Big Oil.

    Look at my above post. Can you dispute any of those facts? And all of it has to do with CO2 levels rising, and no, there isnt some natural cycle or whatever bullshit denialists like to spew about that can explain that. The best explaination for the increasing amount of CO2 in the atmosphere IS ALL THE FUCKING CO2 WE ARE DUMPING IN IT.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    This is the classic "Pascal's Wager" argument. "If Hell is real and you failed to convert to Christianity, then you are doomed for eternity............" This line of reasoning is easily discredited.
    Its less Pascal more prisoners dilemma. Even if Global Warming isnt real(which it is) the goals of the environmental movement will have positive effects.
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  9. #19
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    I don't know much about climatology. I do know the issue of climate change is very politically charged; this makes me sceptical of both sides. I also know that scientists have a really bad track record at making these kind of predictions, because they tend to not make a distinction between prediction and prophecy.

    What will happen in the future depends in large measure upon the future state of knowledge, from our climatological theories to the tacit knowledge embedded in technology and institutions. It is logically impossible to use our present knowledge to predict the future growth of knowledge; a lot of these predictions and statistical extrapolations are not predictions but prophecies. They are almost invariably wrong, because, they assume that knowledge will not change or that its changing will not have any impact on future events. We wouldn't be in this situation in the first place if the growth of knowledge did not change the future in unpredictable ways.

    On the other hand, there are scientists that are arguing that we should avoid creating new knowledge, because every time we create new knowledge we appear to create new problems. Global warming, they say, is an example; the possibility of nuclear war is another. While this would make the job of a futurologist easier, and make it more likely that scientists could predict the future, it would hardly be a solution to any existing problem. There are still events that could wipe out the entire human race (like an asteroid impact) which we currently have no defence against; arresting the growth of knowledge for the sake of precaution would ultimately doom us all.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Actually, I remember watching that famous Al Gore documentary a few years back and I was amazed with the sheer amount of propaganda portrayed in that documentary as scientific facts.

    There's still stuff people need to figure out about global warming and it's not a bad thing at all to go more green and all that.

    But Al Gore's intentions are not to save the planet, but to amass a political following.

    I remember some of the graphs he showed in that documentary, they were freaking hilarious. I'm not about to push the idea of global warming out of the window completely. But considering the errors made by Al Gore, I was a lot more skeptical about the actual presence of the perceived threat.

    The fact is however, that global warming is a hot topic and hot topics are and always will be used to its fullest potential in order to grab the attention of people politically. Eventually though, and it is already happening, the hot topic cools off, and I wouldn't be amazed if that is what will happen to global warming as well.
    Huh, I wasn't aware that Al Gore was so dishonest; I also watched the documentary, but I never noticed any propaganda at all. But if Al Gore is exaggerating the truth simply for his own ends, then I suppose maybe its better that people don't place too much faith in him (although people should still take an active role in the environment).

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    So Al Gore is INFP?

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