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Thread: London Burns

  1. #61
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    "Its an excuse to commit crimes."

    Yeah, because deep down all people want to do is riot and burn buildings. Thats why they do it every day. The reason these riots are going on is simple. No one likes the police, and no one trusts the police.

    http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...ictions-52611/
    ^Do the math on this and it comes out to a little over 1 murder by police every other week. We know that the kid who s death started this riot was completely innocent because of this:
    http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...en-fire-52881/

    People dont just riot every other fucking day because its fun or because they have a god damn blackberry. If you honestly think theres nothing behind these riots but mindless opportunism Id suggest you you get your head surgically removed from your ass and stop reading the Daily Mail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    stop reading the Daily Mail.
    But the Daily Mail is so fun

    I don't think anyone so far has said crime + opportunism are the ONLY motivations or even any motivation for the riots. I think what people have been saying is that the riots themselves are full of people committing crimes and doing things at least partly for the thrill and also free stuff. And even then nobody has (I think) has said the riots are ONLY about people destroying stuff and stealing for fun.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  3. #63
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    Its got nothing to do with financial situation, most of the rioters are keeping in touch with smart phones and blackberries enabled for social network site access, also the UK has problems with obescity not starvation so I say bullshit to any blaming it on poverty per se.

    The reality is that this behaviour has been enabled by consumer culture which emphasises having or being entitled to things rather than the process you go about earning them by effort, that includes respect which has been talked about quite a bit and sparked heated rows between families and children and adults on air. Besides that the biggest thing, for the rioters themselves, appears to be peer validation, if they are celebrity among their friends or considered the greatest or most gloried hoodlum then they're satisfied.

    That's the problem and I dont know that the criminal justice system or social services or even the family, what's left of it, in the UK is capable of dealing with this, the impact of social networking and consumerism on intergenerational conflict, communicable cultural norms etc. hasnt really been factored into anything, not political ideology, its been what has filled the void while academics mused about the "end of" everything, ie end of politics, end of history, end of ideology, end of trust etc.

    The growth of importance of these things has been quite organic but its not been in a good way, its not been stablising its been destabilising, its like a cancer.

  4. #64
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Before the riots started there was a peaceful protest/demand for answers by family and friends of the man who was killed. He was a gang member and I do not find it so surprising when they meet such fates, but the family and friends had every right to demand answers, a proper investigation, etc. It was a perfectly right and proper thing to do. The police frequently lie and cover up about these things. I moved to London just after the Stockwell shooting of de Menezes and I live near that station now. I am somewhat familiar with the kind of coverups that the Met, the Canadian police (ie. the RCMP when they tazered that poor guy to death in Vancouver airport) try to pull off.

    Unfortunately some people took the opportunity to start violence and looting. That was where the last few days parted company with the original issue and became more about opportunism, entitlement, directionless anger and a society where parents have given up responsibility and produced a generation which does...well, stuff like this.
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  5. #65
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    "Its an excuse to commit crimes."

    Yeah, because deep down all people want to do is riot and burn buildings. Thats why they do it every day. The reason these riots are going on is simple. No one likes the police, and no one trusts the police.

    http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...ictions-52611/
    ^Do the math on this and it comes out to a little over 1 murder by police every other week. We know that the kid who s death started this riot was completely innocent because of this:
    http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...en-fire-52881/

    People dont just riot every other fucking day because its fun or because they have a god damn blackberry. If you honestly think theres nothing behind these riots but mindless opportunism Id suggest you you get your head surgically removed from your ass and stop reading the Daily Mail.
    Sorry, he wasn't innocent. He was a gang member. I am not saying the police should have shot him. I am saying, don't call him innocent...for heaven's sake. There was a gang shooting by my local tube station a few months ago with a fricking machine gun. 11:30 at night. I could have been there - I've been there that time of night before. The police said it was a very fortunate thing that no one else was hurt or killed with flying bullets besides the man who lost his life.

    I do not call these people innocent. That blog you quoted conveniently didn't mention that the man who died in Tottenham was in a notorious gang.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    "Its got nothing to do with financial situation"

    LOL WUT

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  7. #67
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Oh and something I forgot to mention about those death stats. They all took place in police custody.

    That means that either the police are laying down some serious beatdowns on inmates and it occasionally goes too far, OR the police are targeting certain individuals in custody for murder. There is no good way you can spin this.
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  8. #68
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    Domestic Violence and Public Violence

    Literacy creates the individual and individual violence. Why, literacy has even domesticated individual violence and called it, unsurprisingly, "domestic violence".

    While electricity creates the etribe and public violence. And naturally public violence comes as a quite a surprise to the literate who, so far, have only had to deal with domestic violence.

  9. #69
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    British youth leads the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    People dont just riot every other fucking day because its fun or because they have a god damn blackberry. If you honestly think theres nothing behind these riots but mindless opportunism Id suggest you you get your head surgically removed from your ass and stop reading the Daily Mail.
    British youth leads the world in almost all aspects of social pathology, from teenage pregancy to drug taking, from drunkenness to violent criminality.

  10. #70
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    The riots are nothing more than a symptom of the grave illness of England's social contract. @Victor's observations are particularly salient; these are all the coping strategies of those who have recognized that their lives are never going to improve, and what's more, that their society couldn't care less.

    The riots are mostly impulsive opportunism. However, people act on those impulses because they have a deep rage burning within: the rage of the marginalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sorry, he wasn't innocent. He was a gang member. I am not saying the police should have shot him. I am saying, don't call him innocent...for heaven's sake. There was a gang shooting by my local tube station a few months ago with a fricking machine gun. 11:30 at night. I could have been there - I've been there that time of night before. The police said it was a very fortunate thing that no one else was hurt or killed with flying bullets besides the man who lost his life.

    I do not call these people innocent. That blog you quoted conveniently didn't mention that the man who died in Tottenham was in a notorious gang.
    That the man was in a gang is not the important part: the important part is why he was in a gang. Gangs and other forms of organized crime (including terrorism) generally arise in response to one belief: that the greater society either oppresses or does nothing to address the concerns of a marginalized group. You see this pattern all over the world, including the North African youths who comprise much of France's gang culture (particularly the Islamist ones), the burakumin who make up the greater part of the Yakuza in Japan, not to mention the United States' gang culture, composed of monoracial gangs (including white supremacist groups, populated mostly by poor, lower class whites).

    Knowing US history better than the history of other countries, I can say that there is a distinct correlation in our history between gang activity within a particular group, and how accepted that group was within broader American society. As Irish-Americans became part of the American mainstream, the old Irish Mob gangs began to wither into irrelevance. The same can be said for the old Jewish gangs (such as that of Bugsy Siegel) and increasingly, the Italian Mafia. Meanwhile, organized criminal hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan have seen their fortunes rise and fall with societal responsiveness to poor white Southerners; their first iteration collapsed when the post-Reconstruction governments of Southern States addressed their (atrocious) concerns with Jim Crow, while the second wave collapsed as Roosevelt's New Deal gave the South a glimmer of hope of entering the modern era. Nowadays, as these people grow increasingly marginalized, unabashedly racialist, racist and nativist groups grow in number.

    That was where the last few days parted company with the original issue and became more about opportunism, entitlement, directionless anger and a society where parents have given up responsibility and produced a generation which does...well, stuff like this.
    Is it a society where parents have given up responsibility, or one where thanks to the combined efforts of Governments from Thatcher through Blair all the way to Cameron today, working class youths have no appreciable hope of improving their situation, and can only see a future worse than the present? One where thanks to neoliberal policy, the chance of acquiring a good-paying, productive (i.e. non-service sector) job without attending university is nearly nil? At a certain point, if you're a parent, you can't exactly just keep lying to your children and tell them that everything's going to get better. Especially when the stresses of one's own life have sunk you and the spouse into a deep depression.

    The anger has no direction because people have so much to be angry about, without a singular cause. It won't be against the government, nor the rich people they work for, because the police have guns and the people do not, and for the most part, people are thinking about what immediately provokes that rage, rather than the broader societal and structural causes. It's opportunistic because the UK has devolved into such a police state, that it is only in the midst of a rioting crowd that people feel safe enough to vent their frustrations.

    What about it seems indicative of an attitude of entitlement?

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