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Thread: London Burns

  1. #51
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    Those things are almost certainly mutually exclusive.
    I know.

    But one can hope.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #52
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    An Iranian paper had the headline "Britain's throat in the claws of oppressed rebels."

    LOL. Or not.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I understand the frustration. I don't understand making innocent people pay for your acts of thuggery. I don't understand people bombing and torching people's hard-earned businesses, or looting. This isn't stealing from the rich in a misguided effort to "even things out." It's stealing from the working-to-middle class, because you don't understand that hard work can bring reward. This sense of entitlement is something that is characteristic of this generation, regardless of class. Perhaps not across the board, but more prevalent than in previous generations.

    I feel for those shop owners. My dad owned a chain of convenience stores, but he grew up dirt poor and learned the business from the ground up. He went from bag boy to cashier to manager, and was over 40 before someone took a chance on going into business with him. To think about innocent people's businesses being completely destroyed in a matter of minutes by a bunch of arrogant thugs makes my blood boil. One of the landmark buildings the mobs destroyed had been in that person's family since 1887. The owner is 80 years old, and can't understand why he was targeted. This hurts people, not only financially, but mentally, spiritually. If these people want to be heard, they are going about it in the wrong way. No one listens to a criminal.

    I see people every day in my classes who are poor, but who are working fulltime jobs while trying to get an education so they can better themselves. Sometimes the honest way is harder. But at least you can live with yourself.

    I think we'll see it in America, too. But it will be just as resented here. This is just disgusting. Anarchy is not the answer.
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o
    Darcus Howe, a West Indian Writer and Broadcaster with a voice about the riots. Speaking about the mistreatment of youths by police leading to an up-roar and the ignorance of both police and the governement.

  5. #55
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  6. #56
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    No anarchy is not the answer, I agree, and dragging innocent people into it is crap.

    I don't see how this is any different than the last generation, though, honestly. Sense of entitlement? The Baby Boomers didn't have a huge sense of entitlement? I beg to differ. The punk generation was just as angry, and the yuppies in the 80s materialistc, ruthless, and self-absorbed. I'm not buying into anyone's bullshit about "this generation."

    They're acting out against the government, and yes, the government has done WRONG. I'm pissed about the UK gov't and I don't even live there, but I agree that targeting innocent people who are working clearly isn't hurting the government.

    I think the idea is that middle class people can be too complacent and not pay attention to what's going on, so young people feel they have to resort to these measures to draw attention to it.




    But then attention gets drawn away from the real issue on to the new issue of vandalism and destruction.

    It's so complex.
    that is one thing that seems to be tossed around alot, people having a sense of entitlement. someone took "rightfully angry""indignant" and replaced it with "sense of entitlement".
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  7. #57
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    There's an argument that young people get involved in this stuff because, well, it's fun.

    Two girls were interviewed by the BBC who'd been taking part in the riots and were drinking stolen wine. They were laughing about how much fun the looting and arson had been and hoped it would continue. They said "we're showing the rich and the police that we can do what we want" and said "it's the government, the Conservatives, whatever." To me, it sounded like they really meant it about the first part "showing them we can do what we want." Even from the tone of voice, the "it's the government" part rang pretty hollow. Almost as though they wanted to laugh at themselves as they said it. Or as though they were parrots. Sure didn't sound like some sort of righteous social protest, rightful anger or indignation. Sounded very nihilistic actually... There wasn't even a mention of the Mark Duggan shooting, btw.

    Oh yes, and they also thought that anyone who owns a business is "rich". The people standing about in Croydon watching their homes and their businesses burn, including pensioners, sure as hell didn't look rich to me. The Turkish men and boys defending their kebab shops in north London didn't look rich to me.

    Peaceful protest can be effective. It isn't always but it can be. At least Britain is a democratic society where peaceful protest, campaigning, if you have grievances, can go ahead. This certainly wasn't peaceful protest and honestly I even hesitate to call it any kind of protest. It was taking advantage of an opportunity to have fun and cause chaos and get stuff for free. To me that is a kind of nihilism. No consequences, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. Those people weren't starving and grabbing food, they were grabbing designer gear and electronics.

    I still think this generation has a far greater sense of entitlement than those preceding it... If you want to extend "this generation" back to young adults in the 80s, fine. I was thinking about this, so many people really don't think they should have to pay or work for anything if they can get it for free. You know how people used to pay for music? If you walked into a music store and stole CDs you were a thief. How many people really think they should pay for downloaded music these days if they can illegally get it free? If you can get something for free, you should, even if it is illegal. Even if that was once known as "stealing". Screw the morality of it.

    And interestingly, the evidence is growing that while there were a lot of young disenfranchised people involved, there were people in their 30s and 40s, all races and backgrounds... They certainly weren't all jobless.

    Three British Asian men died in Birmingham by a deliberate hit and run by black men during the riots there. There could be a huge race-related explosion of anger there in particular. Not good.


    EDIT: I found this comment on a forum, from a resident of Hackney, where some of the worst riots were, in response to these girls' comments:

    "They totally represent a generation of youngsters. How do I know?? cos I have lived in Bloody hackney all my life. Where do you live? I've been in and around Tottenham, went to school there, went to college in Walthamstow. I know these parts and people here like the back of my hand. I have seen all the changes, in the schools and on the streets and the changing of the mentality of young people. If you cannot see that this generation of the last 20 years is out of control and totally devoid of direction, then you need your head tested."
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  8. #58
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    There's an argument that young people get involved in this stuff because, well, it's fun.

    Two girls were interviewed by the BBC who'd been taking part in the riots and were drinking stolen wine. They were laughing about how much fun the looting and arson had been and hoped it would continue. They said "we're showing the rich and the police that we can do what we want" and said "it's the government, the Conservatives, whatever." To me, it sounded like they really meant it about the first part "showing them we can do what we want." Even from the tone of voice, the "it's the government" part rang pretty hollow. Almost as though they wanted to laugh at themselves as they said it. Or as though they were parrots. Sure didn't sound like some sort of righteous social protest, rightful anger or indignation. Sounded very nihilistic actually... There wasn't even a mention of the Mark Duggan shooting, btw.

    Oh yes, and they also thought that anyone who owns a business is "rich". The people standing about in Croydon watching their homes and their businesses burn, including pensioners, sure as hell didn't look rich to me. The Turkish men and boys defending their kebab shops in north London didn't look rich to me.

    Peaceful protest can be effective. It isn't always but it can be. At least Britain is a democratic society where peaceful protest, campaigning, if you have grievances, can go ahead. This certainly wasn't peaceful protest and honestly I even hesitate to call it any kind of protest. It was taking advantage of an opportunity to have fun and cause chaos and get stuff for free. To me that is a kind of nihilism. No consequences, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. Those people weren't starving and grabbing food, they were grabbing designer gear and electronics.

    I still think this generation has a far greater sense of entitlement than those preceding it... If you want to extend "this generation" back to young adults in the 80s, fine. I was thinking about this, so many people really don't think they should have to pay or work for anything if they can get it for free. You know how people used to pay for music? If you walked into a music store and stole CDs you were a thief. How many people really think they should pay for downloaded music these days if they can illegally get it free? If you can get something for free, you should, even if it is illegal. Even if that was once known as "stealing". Screw the morality of it.

    And interestingly, the evidence is growing that while there were a lot of young disenfranchised people involved, there were people in their 30s and 40s, all races and backgrounds... They certainly weren't all jobless.

    Three British Asian men died in Birmingham by a deliberate hit and run by black men. There could be a huge race-related explosion of anger there in particular. Not good.


    EDIT: I found this comment on a forum, from a resident of Hackney, where some of the worst riots were, in response to these girls' comments:

    "They totally represent a generation of youngsters. How do I know?? cos I have lived in Bloody hackney all my life. Where do you live? I've been in and around Tottenham, went to school there, went to college in Walthamstow. I know these parts and people here like the back of my hand. I have seen all the changes, in the schools and on the streets and the changing of the mentality of young people. If you cannot see that this generation of the last 20 years is out of control and totally devoid of direction, then you need your head tested."


    sounds like there was animosity and other things already existing, along with the constant jobless rate that really compounded everything and fed into the other issues. the mark duggan shooting was just an excuse for everything to come to the surface.

    sounds like the same cocktail of combustibles brewing here. people are saying the same things here as well. I know alot of people who want to work and their lives were put on hold because the way things are, or they worked certain jobs all their lives and just yesterday were laid off and are worried about having to sleep in their car at somepoint. I can`t see into the hearts and minds of everyman but I know at least and acknowledge that things are not balanced and they are rightful to be angry and will not categorically lump them under the being entitled, and there are alot of people doing this right now.

    about the newer generation having a greater sense of entitlement then the previous? Im pretty sure I was a little ass hole myself and Im sure the people that dealt with me felt the same way. I believe it is a constant pattern and depending on the area you are raise, Im sure its more prevalent.
    9w?

  9. #59
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knight View Post
    sounds like there was animosity and other things already existing, along with the constant jobless rate that really compounded everything and fed into the other issues. the mark duggan shooting was just an excuse for everything to come to the surface.

    sounds like the same cocktail of combustibles brewing here. people are saying the same things here as well. I know alot of people who want to work and their lives were put on hold because the way things are, or they worked certain jobs all their lives and just yesterday were laid off and are worried about having to sleep in their car at somepoint. I can`t see into the hearts and minds of everyman but I know at least and acknowledge that things are not balanced and they are rightful to be angry and will not categorically lump them under the being entitled, and there are alot of people doing this right now.

    about the newer generation having a greater sense of entitlement then the previous? Im pretty sure I was a little ass hole myself and Im sure the people that dealt with me felt the same way. I believe it is a constant pattern and depending on the area you are raise, Im sure its more prevalent.
    Oh, I'm sure poverty feeds into this equation...but I haven't read anything that suggests that JOBS are what this mob is after.

    The sense of entitlement I'm referring to is what SilkRoad was talking about. The "something for nothing" mentality. Many of this generation either were never taught stealing is wrong, or just don't care that it is. The mentality is "take what you want and don't get caught." Wrong = caught, in their eyes. In previous generations, a thief was a thief.

    Looting a grocery store in a Hurricane Katrina situation is perfectly understandable. Setting fire to Sony and going in and stealing music is wrong, and it doesn't make people think about how to not make you disenfranchised--it just makes you look like a petty thief. And a lot of these folks seem to be opportunists rather than activists.
    Something Witty

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'll join the first militia for average citizens to put these riotous louts in their place.

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