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Thread: London Burns

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Sad but true. You do what you have to. None of this suprises me at all, and I'm with OrangeAppled that this is going to happen in the U.S. very soon.
    Easiest way to become famous? Do something crazy and make the news.

    But really, negative coverage is negative coverage. Everything you worked for now becomes, "look at these people burning, looting buildings, and causing mayhem." I'm quite sure some of these people are from the same neighborhood that they are looting and burning.

    Quite honestly, I think these sort of things may happen soon in the U.S. also considering the public sentiment is lousy at best. I mean, a group of protestors went to Washington to voice their opinion on education cuts. The whole ordeal? It got washed about by the debt deal. When you begin to drown out other people voices, things will happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Anyone heard this? That it started because of a 16 year old girl being beat with batons?

    It is like the L.A. Riots. It may be justified outraged, but not when you bring whole neighborhoods into the mess that really didn't need to be.

    -----------------------------------------------

    On a lighter note, I hope this doesn't affect the 2012 Olympics.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    Easiest way to become famous? Do something crazy and make the news.

    But really, negative coverage is negative coverage. Everything you worked for now becomes, "look at these people burning, looting buildings, and causing mayhem." I'm quite sure some of these people are from the same neighborhood that they are looting and burning.

    Quite honestly, I think these sort of things may happen soon in the U.S. also considering the public sentiment is lousy at best. I mean, a group of protestors went to Washington to voice their opinion on education cuts. The whole ordeal? It got washed about by the debt deal. When you begin to drown out other people voices, things will happen.

    It is like the L.A. Riots. It may be justified outraged, but not when you bring whole neighborhoods into the mess that really didn't need to be.
    Without identity, we have nothing. So a little public violence, with minimal loss of life, is a price worth paying for knowing who we are.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Good man..

    er, woman.

  4. #44
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    I understand the frustration. I don't understand making innocent people pay for your acts of thuggery. I don't understand people bombing and torching people's hard-earned businesses, or looting. This isn't stealing from the rich in a misguided effort to "even things out." It's stealing from the working-to-middle class, because you don't understand that hard work can bring reward. This sense of entitlement is something that is characteristic of this generation, regardless of class. Perhaps not across the board, but more prevalent than in previous generations.

    I feel for those shop owners. My dad owned a chain of convenience stores, but he grew up dirt poor and learned the business from the ground up. He went from bag boy to cashier to manager, and was over 40 before someone took a chance on going into business with him. To think about innocent people's businesses being completely destroyed in a matter of minutes by a bunch of arrogant thugs makes my blood boil. One of the landmark buildings the mobs destroyed had been in that person's family since 1887. The owner is 80 years old, and can't understand why he was targeted. This hurts people, not only financially, but mentally, spiritually. If these people want to be heard, they are going about it in the wrong way. No one listens to a criminal.

    I see people every day in my classes who are poor, but who are working fulltime jobs while trying to get an education so they can better themselves. Sometimes the honest way is harder. But at least you can live with yourself.

    I think we'll see it in America, too. But it will be just as resented here. This is just disgusting. Anarchy is not the answer.
    Something Witty

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    No anarchy is not the answer, I agree, and dragging innocent people into it is crap.

    I don't see how this is any different than the last generation, though, honestly. Sense of entitlement? The Baby Boomers didn't have a huge sense of entitlement? I beg to differ. The punk generation was just as angry, and the yuppies in the 80s materialistc, ruthless, and self-absorbed. I'm not buying into anyone's bullshit about "this generation."

    They're acting out against the government, and yes, the government has done WRONG. I'm pissed about the UK gov't and I don't even live there, but I agree that targeting innocent people who are working clearly isn't hurting the government.

    I think the idea is that middle class people can be too complacent and not pay attention to what's going on, so young people feel they have to resort to these measures to draw attention to it.

    But then attention gets drawn away from the real issue on to the new issue of vandalism and destruction.

    It's so complex.

  6. #46
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    Conversations around this are always interested (and I'm gonna parallel to my thread on "Colonial Themed Wedding") These are social issues brought on by a larger historical context. It really simplifies things to say "this person should work hard, this person should not act like a criminal". Because are no longer talking about just individuals and individual acts, we're looking at patterns and also mob mentality. In the states you have black bloc, dedicated to stirring shit and adding an anarcho element to any peaceful demonstration. These are mostly privileged, educated young white men. They get to stir shit as part of a philosophical mien. It's totally different from people who are angry and underprivileged and get caught up.

    I actually do agree with the concept of entitlement @Tallulah and that 'kids' these days are more and more idjeets (no offense to the Millenials and younger here). The root stem of violent protests is righteous indignation which may be well deserved. Then it just takes a life of its own with mindless violence and looting.

    It's a mob. There is no higher purpose. It's not organized. Or part of a movement. People did this in Seattle too and other places, trashed local mom and pop owned businesses that even 'progressives' in the city liked. If you really had a message, you'd burn down Starbucks and Wal-Mart, not tear down your neighbor.

    It makes no sense but I only expect better from people who are educated - and there are a lot of educated rioters. Desperation calls for desperate measures which is something I can undertand, what I can't understand is people with enough intelligence to twist the higher meaning and intent as justification for outright looting and destruction.

    As an organizer, I would say most people are not naturally smart when it comes to organizing/protesting. Some people have their heart in the right place but no practical foundation and have wack identity politics (meaning they only care about their particular group, screw everyone else) or just terrible at basic logistics. It takes a real concerted effort to organize something effective.

    But that that ^^ has nothing to do with the riots. A fuse has been lit - then again the tinderbox was already set. It is always set in underprivileged, marginalized areas, especially adding in outright police brutality, profiling, etc.
    Add in testosterone and young angst and you have people shirring (my neologism for 'shit stirring') as a form of expression, there is no thought process involved.

    I lived in DC in a blighted neighborhood. There had been riots back with Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. The neighborhood NEVER recovered, I mean wtf. When I moved there at the turn of the century and even now there are many buildings boarded up, storefront for businesses that never show up, and new businesses have a very hard time making it for more than a couple months. Our intersection was always being shut down do to a shooting and if you look it up, I was SURROUNDED by registered sex offenders and criminals and crime. I got mugged at knife point across the street and further up the street (where it gets even sketchier) a waiter was fatally shot in the head after he closed up for the night.

    Basically, it's a high crime place filled mostly with dollar stores and take-outs. Super sketchy. You know what happens to 'hoods like this? They stay crappy forever OR until the gays and hipsters come to gentrify and and physically improve them. Then people (even the gentrifiers) complain that it's unfair. Technically, even if you come from the same racial or cultural background of the neighborhood, if you are an outsider and especially if you are higher educated and higher economic class, you count as a gentrifier. And changing neighborhoods doesn't happen overnight, it takes at least a decade if not decades.

    Practically speaking, unless you enter the government and try to change things from the top down, what other possibilities are there for blighted areas?

    I guess for the people rioting, this is their way of trying to do something, anything to express themselves and "effect change"?

    Wow, I have become a total hater as I've gotten older. Who knew I'd turn into a young Republican?

    But yeah, put pressure down on people and the top will pop off sometimes. It's not 'justified' or heroic but that's what happens.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  7. #47
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    I think using up most of the world's natural resources and polluting the planet in less than a century was pretty fucking entitled.

    So is any and all forms of hoarding wealth.

    It's very hard for me to demonize these people, though I think it's gone too far.

    I have no right answer because the answer "oh just work within the system" isn't always really fair or effective.

    I do think this is EXACTLY what will happen in the U.S. (AND WORSE) if libertarianism takes hold. I certainly hope all the little Randroids are getting that message loud and clear.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I actually do agree with the concept of entitlement @Tallulah and that 'kids' these days are more and more idjeets (no offense to the Millenials and younger here). The root stem of violent protests is righteous indignation which may be well deserved. Then it just takes a life of its own with mindless violence and looting.
    It isn't an entitlement. It is a lot more like a broken promise by yours truly, the elder generation. Social Security is more like an entitlement, it was payed for in order to receive those benefits. In fact, this is becoming less of an entitlement and more like a "screw you" mentality. I'm quite sure people in politics could have seen this happen a mile away.

    We are told to get an education, so we get an education.
    We are told to work, so we go to work (or try to go to work.)
    Most have done what we've been told. What does that get us? More cuts because we need to balance the budget. Increased fees, decreased class offerings (which mean people need to pack... along with older people who lost their jobs,) unit caps (for some people... it'll take more than a few years to get a degree now because of it.)

    It is either that, or an unemployment (of those age 18-30) higher than the national average (in fact, it is higher than the other generations.)

    Though I am not suffering as bad as other people are, I can sense their anxiety and restlessness.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Like I said already, this didn't really need to happen. But when you are drowned out by all the white noise out there, somethings has got to give and it seems these people wanted to create attention (as much as I detest their way of doing it.)

    On another news, Tear gas flies during Chilean student protests

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think using up most of the world's natural resources and polluting the planet in less than a century was pretty fucking entitled.
    But poor people in the US and the UK and other 'first world' nations also consume gas and electronics and contribute to pollution. And help keep poor people in other countries indentured servants to sweat shops. Privilege is relative. And everyone gets caught up in a system by virtue of being born to it. It's something that elicits a lot of angry responses and defenses - i.e. by virtue of being American you are complicit in the illegal torture 'suspected terrorists' in Guantanamo and other sekret places. But, there is a shred of truth to it all. When discussing acts like this, I said it before, but they are somewhat timeless and universal. Piss a group/neighborhood of people off enough, they riot. Without a leader or religious/ethical/philosophical foundation, you basically get a bunch of people who may have started off angry and then it becomes a mob that snowballs with no head leading the way and making decisions for everyone else. Who speaks for the mob? The crux of a mob is that either there is no individual responsibility because its one big mob or there is only individual responsibility because it's a lot of individuals just fucking up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    It isn't an entitlement. It is a lot more like a broken promise by yours truly, the elder generation. Social Security is more like an entitlement, it was payed for in order to receive those benefits. In fact, this is becoming less of an entitlement and more like a "screw you" mentality. I'm quite sure people in politics could have seen this happen a mile away.

    We are told to get an education, so we get an education.
    We are told to work, so we go to work (or try to go to work.)
    Most have done what we've been told. What does that get us? More cuts because we need to balance the budget. Increased fees, decreased class offerings (which mean people need to pack... along with older people who lost their jobs,) unit caps (for some people... it'll take more than a few years to get a degree now because of it.)

    It is either that, or an unemployment (of those age 18-30) higher than the national average (in fact, it is higher than the other generations.)

    Though I am not suffering as bad as other people are, I can sense their anxiety and restlessness.
    Mmmm, I would have to say those are two far ends on a big spectrum. It's kind of a stretch to compare dissatisfaction at the economy, lack of jobs, loss of social security which is something everyone up to and including the middle class is feeling in the states - with what these kids are rioting about - they would probably say they are victims of systemic racism and oppression and targed for police violence because their lives are not considered as worthy as other people and basically put on the bottom of the social/economic ladder.

    Dissatisfaction about the things you mention in the states is more a cause for Tea Party protests (wacky and loud) or websites to be set up. What happened in London is more like a flash fire.

    Also, I'm surprised people haven't been paralleling more all the shooting deaths of people recently which caused protests (no burning cars and mobs though).

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Like I said already, this didn't really need to happen. But when you are drowned out by all the white noise out there, somethings has got to give and it seems these people wanted to create attention (as much as I detest their way of doing it.)

    On another news, Tear gas flies during Chilean student protests
    [/quote]

    I think some people are more prone to be forgiving or look more favorably on mobs and rioting. Myself? Again, they are timeless and universal. They happen. The more instability in society (some would call this repression, racism, injustice) and tension the more likely something is gonna happen to set one off. Personally, I never look *favorably* on mobs. It brings out the ugliest and basest parts of the animal brain, there is little to no higher functioning really going on. It's purely emotional and then just turns into a literal mob mentality regardless of whatever 'happy thing.

    I think part of the moral equation of a mob mentality (if ethics are even operating anymore, again, the animal brain is turned on) is that "people have really pissed me off and wronged me so I'm gonna fuck shit up since this is my only outlet for equality and in the end we'll be even".

    I think it is certainly more justifiable in some cases than in others. I don't think you can argue that mobs are inherently ugly. In same cases they are part of a larger change, sometimes they just fuck up one neighborhood beyond repair and turn it into a blighted ghetto. I think it's possible to say "wow, that mob was ugly and destroyed a lot of hard working people's small businesses and caused a lot of damage that will take years to recover from" and also "I understand why this happened and I agree there are things in society that need to change".

    It just grates on me when people automatically applaud violence and destruction for its own sake as if it's viva la revolucion time. There is no revolution. There is just a mob of angry people looting stores and setting cars on fire. People riot like that because of sports games. Are sports fans heroic in their indignation at losing? I don't think so. Violence is only revolutionary and constructive when it is carefully applied and thought out.

    Who knows though, maybe this will help their case.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  10. #50
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    I love that the Syrian govt is urging the British police to “exercise restraint”. Hahahaha! Too awesome.

    Last night various “intellectuals” were debating why it hasn’t happened in Scotland (yet). Is it because there is less economic inequality in a country with a socialist conscience? Is it because our “government” is “more caring”? Because there is every bit as much deprivation in Glasgow’s sink estates as in Tottenham. Is it because we don’t have the same degree of multiculturalism (a symptom of intolerance)? Well, possibly. Look at the French – they riot at the drop of a bread stick. Is it because of the influence of the Kirk? Why no, we’re every bit as Godless as they are. But perhaps our history has given us a superior “moral compass”? Better social discipline? We only riot with good cause. Like when Rangers beat Celtic... In the end, I think they concluded it’s just because we’re better than them. LMAO.
    Maybe it’s just because we’re too poor to afford the Blackberrys that were used to orchestrate much of the looting (through encrypted traffic). One naive 16 y/o started a Facebook site entitled, “Let’s start a riot in Glasgow!” And was promptly arrested.

    People laugh at the idea of an “English Summer”. That the UK riots have arisen from the same wellspring as the Arab Spring. But they are tangentially related. And the thing that unites them is a loss of respect for traditionally established authority. This is the decade of anarchy within the Age of Entitlement. Who are our heroes? People like Julian Assange. It has become more morally acceptable, laudable even, than ever to “fight the power”. Those rioters in Nottingham likely see themselves as modern-day Robin Hoods. It’s too easy to label them as “mindless thugs”. Most people who engage in crime also engage in self-justification. However suspect their logic might be, it’s foolish to imagine that no logic exists. What good has demonizing particular segments of society ever done? Most people act on instinct and instinct has a ruthless and commanding logic of its own.

    Our leaders in the media, politics, commerce and public order are constantly exposed and undermined for their incompetence or outright corruption. Banking, once amongst the most respected of professions, is now reviled as the lowest of the low, full of white collar criminals entirely unaccountable for their actions and continually bailed out by the powerless and increasingly put-upon taxpayer. It’s a new flavour of feudalism. The media engage in criminal activity too – hacking the phones of murdered children – and the police avert their gaze. The head of the Met was recently forced to resign for his handling of the News International scandal. Every other week a politician is sacked / imprisoned for corruption. If they can’t even manage their expenses legitimately, what hope that they can rescue an out of control economy? The police are repeatedly portrayed as risk averse incompetents who murder innocent bystanders but are impotent in the face of thuggish yobs.

    We ask an increasingly alienated and hopeless youth to respect law and order yet the whole edifice has been exposed as a fragile and ridiculous sham.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I hope these people will stay piss poor for the rest of their lives, but I also hope the situation will improve for all the poor people who are at least decent about the situation.
    Those things are almost certainly mutually exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This sense of entitlement is something that is characteristic of this generation, regardless of class. Perhaps not across the board, but more prevalent than in previous generations.
    I think the difference is that the sense of entitlement used to be restricted to particular classes. Now it’s Global.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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