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Thread: London Burns

  1. #11
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Lol, Anyone surprised that people with a lack of consience steal during a riot, even from people they might have a relationship to or belong to their own community?. Whoever said these any of these guys were in it to avenge their friends death, that said if they even had any relationship to Duggan in the first place. People do this kind of thing all of the time, using confusion and situations where the risk factor of being reprimanded is very low. For people who commit theft and petty crime, pragmatic thieves and small time criminals, its the perfect situation to come out and steal during events of disorder.

    I used to hang around crowds who had profiles like this. and i can tell you that easy theft was an accepted norm amongst the urban immigrant youth culture. We were all third generation immigrants from working class families.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I'm not saying that disaffection, underprivilege, crappy upbringings etc aren't part of the cause. They are not an excuse, though. How can there be an excuse for the wanton destruction of people's livelihoods and for creating an atmosphere of fear on London's streets? How is that going to improve anyone's lives? Many of the people whose businesses and homes have been destroyed come from underprivileged working class backgrounds themselves. This is just lawlessness.
    Thats a question that is very persistent in Europe. The problem is that you're assuming that these guys are rational agents, who have a sense of moral accountability to the larger community of the nation, national solidarity when clearly they don't, they have no reason to, in a mob mentality, people do not question whatever they are doing are ultimately of good consequence. Hence the term outsiders being used when refering to problematic demographs.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    This is not the way to demonstrate/protest, end of line.

    I hope these people will stay piss poor for the rest of their lives, but I also hope the situation will improve for all the poor people who are at least decent about the situation.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #13
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    This is not the way to demonstrate/protest, end of line.

    I hope these people will stay piss poor for the rest of their lives, but I also hope the situation will improve for all the poor people who are at least decent about the situation.
    Ill wishing them is not going to solve anything. Governments need to try to find new strategies to combat youth crime. Which doesn't involve setting up task forces and other law enforcing outfits that do shit.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  4. #14
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    When I was 4 years old I could reason well enough to know that resorting to crime isn't going to improve ones situation, these people have serious issues. If you want to help them, send them to mental institutions for therapy.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #15
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    When I was 4 years old I could reason well enough to know that resorting to crime isn't going to improve ones situation, these people have serious issues. If you want to help them, send them to mental institutions for therapy.
    i doubt you had a conception of what crime entailed, unless you were way above your mental age. But anyway, there is little much else they could do to improve their situation even without rioting. These kind of events will keep repeating themselves for as long as there is no long term solution to improve their financial situation.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  6. #16
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    i doubt you had a conception of what crime entailed, unless you were way above your mental age. But anyway, there is little much else they could do to improve their situation even without rioting. These kind of events will keep repeating themselves for as long as there is no long term solution to improve their financial situation.
    I don't like the notion "...even without rioting" as a way to sort off justify (or at least sell understanding towards) their actions. Rioting -definately- won't improve their situation.

    If there are not enough jobs, there are not enough business'. I'd suggest to some of them to look for alternative ways of financial income and use their creativity, look for oppertunities in entrepeneurship, build firms, create new sources of revenue, instead of wasting their time on destroying property, halting infrastructure, causing major economic repurcussions and basicly waste more money in a few days than they would cost themselves in their entire lives. They are shooting themselves (AND decent poor people) in their foots.

    If you have sympathy for these people, I won't stop you. I won't even say you're totally wrong. There is ofcourse more to it, and I know my opinion on this is very black and white. But I don't even have a tiny grain of sympathy for them myself. Because people should have been above this crap in this day and age, but they just keep on being one big ass dissappointment.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #17
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I don't like the notion "...even without rioting" as a way to sort off justify (or at least sell understanding towards) their actions. Rioting -definately- won't improve their situation.
    Nay, that is not what i meant to imply. I meant that there is no visibly feasible way, they could solve their situation. Not that i condone their riot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    If there are not enough jobs, there are not enough business'. I'd suggest to some of them to look for alternative ways of financial income and use their creativity, look for oppertunities in entrepeneurship, instead of wasting their time on destroying property, halting infrastructure, causing major economic repurcussions and basicly waste more money in a few days than they would cost themselves in their entire lives. They are shooting themselves (AND decent poor people) in their foots.
    Pray tell, where would they acquire the skills to become creative entrepeneurs and dont you think their opportunities have been exhausted? . Only in Ayn Rands lalalaland would a similar development take place, where a demograph would neglect logically feasible alternatives. And dont you think encourging behavior has been tried at all with both independent and government sponsored projects, it has, with limited succes. None of that is remotely sustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    If you have sympathy for these people, I won't stop you. I won't even say you're totally wrong. There is ofcourse more to it. But I don't even have a tiny grain of sympathy for them myself. Because people should have been above this crap in this day and age, but they just keep on being one big ass dissappointment.
    The majority of people are not rational agents man, in any given population, the majority are not going to act accordingly to some highly upheld logical principles. I would expect in the case that you find this abhorrent and despicable behavior you would take on a more active role in discussion, rather then distancing yourself from problems with nominal condemnations.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  8. #18
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Pray tell, where would they acquire the skills to become creative entrepeneurs and dont you think more . Only in Ayn Rand lalalaland would a similar development take place, where a demograph would neglect logically feasible alternatives. And dont you think encourging behavior has been tried at all with both independent and government sponsored projects, it has, with limited succes. None of that is remotely sustainable.
    There are plenty of ways one could at the very least sustain themselves through entrepeneuring, the only difference is, it requires dedication. Still, if these people have the dedication to destroy the property of others, shouldn't they at least have the dedication to start exploring something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    The majority of people are not rational agents man, in any given population, the majority are not going to act accordingly to some highly upheld logical principles. I would expect in the case that you find this abhorrent and despicable behavior you would take on a more active role in discussion, rather then distancing yourself from problems.
    Since I've been active in the entrepeneurmanship I've upped the reveneu of our business to allow for 10 extra job positions by mostly exploring under-explored niches, above the positions we already had when I rolled into the business. I'm a quality vs quantity kind of guy, already explored and highly competative niches are not my area of expertise (They is boring :P ). I could create more jobs at this point but it would go at the cost of the quality of the product I want to sell and might leave a vacuum with other companies as a result, but still, 10 extra positions in 8 years time is doing a whole lot more than most people, I assume.

    So, whilest I'm working my ass off 60-80 hours a week to keep things going, these people find it justified to go around destroying property because they feel they did not get the same chance as other people did? I think not. They did get the chance, they just didn't take it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #19
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    There are plenty of ways one could at the very least sustain themselves through entrepeneuring, the only difference is, it requires dedication. Still, if these people have the dedication to destroy the property of others, shouldn't they at least have the dedication to start exploring something else?
    Such as? you might as well give some examples to these unapparent opportunities. This is a very large demograph mind you, this is not 20 or 100 inviduals violent inviduals. These people just choose to vent their anger. They are a part of a much larger problem, which is not only in london, but the entire west.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Since I've been active in the entrepeneurmanship I've upped the reveneu of our business to allow for 10 extra job positions by mostly exploring under-explored niches, above the positions we already had when I rolled into the business. I'm a quality vs quantity kind of guy, already explored and highly competative niches are not my area of expertise (They is boring :P ). I could create more jobs at this point but it would go at the cost of the quality of the product I want to sell and might leave a vacuum with other companies as a result, but still, 10 extra positions in 8 years time is doing a whole lot more than most people, I assume.
    How many of these guys do you think have the education and the opportunity to enter into buisness and do what you did? X 8000

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    So, whilest I'm working my ass off 60-80 hours a week to keep things going, these people find it justified to go around destroying property because they feel they did not get the same chance as other people did? I think not. They did get the chance, they just didn't take it.
    lol, cmon now that just stands contrary to serious research done by social scientists. Do you really believe that those liberal slogans really reflect reality?.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    How many of these guys do you think have the education and the opportunity to enter into buisness and do what you did?
    As for oppertunity, I had to prove myself time and time again and earn my place here just like everyone else would, or I would've been kicked out a long time ago. I'm also not highly educated, I started fulltime working after I finished high school (I do kind of regret that because school is a lot more fun than work. But I don't fret about it. :P ). But that isn't what's needed to get an income, it just might make things easier (although I'm not sure, eductating yourself in an area that doesn't offer many jobs can be a real pain too, especially psychologically. I'd argue it'd be harder for someone to find a job then because they're automatically narrowing the area down to their expertise and only look for jobs there). Effort is the most important thing.

    It's never been easy for me to do the job I do now, especially as an INTP in a very J world, and I had to make a lot of sacrifices for it too, but that doesn't keep me from doing it, because the alternative is much worse.

    Everyone who wants to do business will have to find their niche themselves, it's different for everyone. But it all comes down to looking around you and see what isn't there, but what could be, and what you want to be there. And try to make it happen.

    I bet that if I went to London to live there, I could have a self-sustaining income within 6 months time (which imo is a reasonable gap), despite being a foreigner. It might not be a job I'd enjoy doing or want to do. But that is not of first concern. But if you don't go out to search for oppertunities, you won't find them. They don't (rarily) come looking for you. :P

    Not that I'd ever want to go to a shithole like that ever again in my life with all those vandalists though. (See above, self-shooting in foots).

    Either way, all the looting and destruction, it's just all kinds of messed up. I'm sure you can agree with me on that.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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