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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Default Tell me something libertarains ........

    To be honest I didn't even knew what is Libertarianizm before I came to this site 3 years ago. Which is because these ideas are basically none existant in my Eastern European environment.




    However I still dont understand how exactly will/would libertarian ideas help USA to be a better place to live ? (I trully dont)


    To me it seems that the country is simply too self centered to realize what is going on and that the goverment is not your real problem. Your real problem is that the world no longer wants to play by your rules and it is creating mechanisms and new goods to resist American control.


    For example your goverment is not giving subventions to many companies because there is a corruption going on. But because these companies will go bankrupt since they can't compete with companies that are getting subventions all the time. Another good example would be my local branch of Coca Cola which is getting into financial problems as far as I know. What is because local baverage companies have made a set of products that are winning the battle against your company. So if McDonald's gets out of business the Coca Cola will have to witdraw. Even if they create some new and good products that may not be enough since people have also realized that buying these product means that they are sending money abroad. What directly harms their way of life, if nothing it harms it because the money that comes out will probably have to be relapced with some kind of a debt.



    Also it can be argued that American economy did not become world's number one because of good policies and strategies but because it was the only major power that did not have it infrastructure destroyed in WW2 which left most of the world in ruins. Plus, after that a number of pretty incompetent and stupid regimes took over those parts of the world. So now when this legacy of the WW2 is going into history the world is gaining it economic strength back.



    Now why did I mention libertarians and people who want more liberal/free market ?


    Because I dont see how will this ideas return things to how they were or make things right for you. I dont understand what makes you think that a private company can wage a economic war against a company that has a huge goverment research facilities behind it as well as subventions ? Even if we overlook that everybody there works for at least 10 times less money I still think that the war has obvious ending unless the private company is one of those huge corporations. But even if that case the private company will probably have problems and waste alot of time and resources in order to win. While on the other hand this is exacly the type of companies that libertarians often seem to hate.



    Also the trully free market can loose it edge through some very subtle tricks.



    The state X can create a company that bulds houses and apartment bulidings without desire for profit and they only care that the company does not go into huge minuses. And then in the end they sell this living space to a familiy for a pretty low price. Let say 50 000 dollars, since that is a real price of a empty apartment/house when they are mass produced and there is no profit. So what happens ? You get more stable familiy since they solved their main problem pretty easily. Plus now this family does not have a loan that will be paying out to some bank for the next 30 years. But instead they will have much more money to buy goods that are product of real economy. What is also pretty good since the money is distributed more equally and supports real producing jobs .



    Another one of this tricks is also one of the America's Achille's heel. Healthcare.


    Some parts to the world realized that having a none capitalistic healthcare could be beneficial. For example most of cures/drugs we use are not that much complex from the stuff we consume every day. (like candies for example) So what happens. The people at power create a company that produces this healing chemicals and offers them to their public. But still this is not gambling with other peoples money since you paid the whole production cost by yourself , but you dont have to pay for insurance companies , administration , taxes , advertisement that is needed for company to spread , shareholders , etc.



    Plus if the quality of service drops that will create a proper respones on elections.
    However the libertarian views go in a pretty different direction that ends in promoting health as some sort of a choice. What becomes too expensive for many people and they stop caring about their health. What in end reduces their productivity , and when you get millions and millions people like that .... you have a serious problem. Plus if the society is generally more productive because of better general health it is not a problem to pick out a little bit more money for a research and improvements. For example my parents would spend alot of money on my child sicknesses but with the help of this model they did not spend that much since the dosage needed to get you well was between 3 and 5 $. Not to mention that it can be extra effective in the fact that no money goes abroad. (to big pharmaceutial companies for example). Plus the society can get something else for that money.




    Another "problem" is that libertarian views want the state to stay away from the education. Which then often costs alot. While on the other hand many of the so called third world countries have started programs of mass technical education. Creating litterally millions of new engineers. The point is that I dont see how a libertarian society can economically stand up to a force like that ? So in the end US is/will be overwhelmed in numbers and cost. (and lately even in quality sometimes). But on the other hand libertarians says that the country should be organised in a way that you personally or your parents should pay for the education. What in the end leads to the fact that many people dont become experts even if they have the potential. What only gives some other countries the edge over the US that can even be multiplied with time. Plus since education often cost alot it can also help in bad distribution of wealth.



    One more element is military spending. The truth is that in general it would not be a bad idea to reduce military spending around the world but reducing it in the case of US today it seems like bad idea. Which is because you actually need that military to make sure that your economy has enough resources and to uphold Petrodollar which is a major pillar of your economy on so many ways.


    What in the end allows you to buy resources around the world much easier since you are the first one which is being asked if you want to buy something. However if this position comes under question that will make the job for many other sides much more simple and easier. Especially since they are really trying to get the economic and educational advantage. So once they get the resources they need there will be the shift of power. On the other hand this countries/movements will probably never adopt libertarian views. (at least not in a next few decades)

    What in the end means that you in way you could be digging your own grave in political sense. Also if you are one of the people that thinks that the US needs to witdraw to its own borders that would mean that you are probably in conflict with many people that are trying to get better education. The trick is that in this scenario there will be no more of this massive import of goods, so US will have to bulid its new factories. What means that those young people will have to work there instead of some office.





    Some 30 or 40 years ago your only outside problem was basically Soviet Union.
    While today your still have that same Russia just in a different form. But you also have EU that has decided to take over your economic strength/position. You have far eastern contries that when combined have about 10 times more people than you are and their goverments want economic growth. (huge economic growth). Also you have the Al quaida guys as well as the fact that latin America is basically more united than ever before. While the only one you can trully count on in this situation is Canada. (No joke intended)



    Also US have a pretty bad overall image. So sometimes people dont want to buy your products simply because you seem as a bad people. Or because of idea that giving money to people who have connections with libertarian way of thinking will spread this way of thinking. What in the end could result in the loss of many benefits that their goverments are giving them. Also the foreign companies just have to show a little bit of Tea party people , a little bit of modern republicans and their view, a few dumb MTV reality shows .... and that is it - instant turn off from everything american. (economy and products included) I would even dare to say that showing americans as dumb has become a pretty lucrative business.




    Another example of this bad image can be global warming. Especially since many think that your way of life "house -> car -> work -> car -> house" and all of that under air conditioner gives you no right to say anything on the topic.

    Plus lately because of extensive droughts in some countries local population had to bailout local farmers and import more food. What further decreases popularity of both US and your products. But in the end it actually creates a mess inside your own borders. Basically it does not even matter if global warming is true or this is just a few anomal years in a row. But the fact is that many people dont want to have anything with you because of your one sided way of seeing the issue and they are the ones who have to pay for your attitude (at least in their heads). What in the end can chew a few possible trillions on your account.








    So the bottom line is that I dont get what you libertarians are actually trying to achive ?


    I mean in all of this mess it seems that your biggest enemy is your own goverment !?

    While it looks to me that your government does not have that much to do with the mess as much as a fact that the others waked up from the long sleep. However since you have expanded all across the map the only place where they could spread is in your field of influence. What has resulted in reduction of influence on your side.
    (but most of expenses have stayed)



    On the other hand you have pretty brutally attacked your own goverment in some of the moments when it was trying to adept to the new situation. Actually I got the impression that most of people did not understand that the previous operating system as well as many traditional values are no longer realistc since the country and its economy took a few pretty big but subtle hits.
    Of course goverment could have made better plans and strategies, sure. But that still does not mean that it is actually a root of most of the problems. Especially since it seems pretty obvious that the real problem is realtionship of USA with rest of the word.






    So I am wondering and I am trully curious about how will libertarians and some other Americans defend their views against this long comment ? (Just for the record: I am the author and I come in peace )

  2. #2
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    However I still dont understand how exactly will/would libertarian ideas help USA to be a better place to live ? (I trully dont)
    Because if you suck up to rich people enough one day you will be rich too!

    No really. Thats the logic behind it.
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    No the logic is "I believe I'm superior and know things will magically go well for me!"

    It's the opposite of having a realistic view of the world, not unlike being a die hard communist or a pacifist. They are two sides of the same coin.

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    Me smells a poor understanding of libertarianism here.

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    Or a poor understanding of how a first world country could become a third world country on behalf of the libertarians.

    I should say "anarcho-capitalist libertarians" because that's obviously what the OP is addressing, free market et al.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Me smells a poor understanding of libertarianism here.
    I think I hit the nail on the head. If you want to get more in to the theoretical side of it, Libertarianism is the theory that if everyone acted like a total dick we would all be much better off.
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  7. #7
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Me smells a poor understanding of libertarianism here.
    Then perhaps you know something. Do enlighten the OP.
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  8. #8
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Most non-libertarian definitions of libertarianism are like Helios' definition of feminism, anyone who believes in its efficacy is GUILTY OF ALL THE BAD THINGS TOO. Because I said so.

    Part of that is due to the minority of the ideology which causes them to collect extreme sects of thought in order to have a louder voice, not to mention how broadly you're able to interpret basic principles. It's susceptible to slippery slope and strawman fallacies at every turn.

    /notalibertarian



  9. #9
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I believe libertarianism fuzzily refers to reducing the influence of government in private affairs, or to look at it another way, expanding the scope of what is deemed private. This partly translates into matters of culture and lifestyle, such as freedom of speech/anti-censorship, allowing drug use, gay marriage, etc. But the topic usually seems to end up following more heavily on finance and commerce. Decreasing the involvement of government typically means less regulation on business practices, less extraction of revenue by the government i.e. taxes, and less spending of money on the part of the government.

    The problem with that definition of course is that it's all in terms of more and less, without clarification of what those things really mean. Qualitative definitions seem to go all over the place, depending on who I ask. In America, what is typical for a libertarian seems to be making a really big deal out of the constitution, promoting a strict reading of that I honestly believe is less interpretive than is humanly possible, and then reducing the government to whatever the minimum necessary amount is enforce the laws therein. Regardless of whether it's based on the US constitution or something else, libertarians seem to be minarchists, and not anarchists. Oddly, I do notice that non-American libertarians seem to parrot the US constitution even if they are 8,000 miles away from anywhere that it's legally relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Then perhaps you know something. Do enlighten the OP.
    Not tonight, not in the mood. When I feel better rested perhaps.

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