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  1. #71
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Magic,

    Are you addressing me too? I am no anarcho-capitalist. I may see taxes as a necessary evil, but I still see them as necessary. Taxes are common to both good and bad governments, and so it is not the existence of taxes that is the problem. Taxes can either be a cost of liberty and prosperity, or they can be the tool of slavery and poverty. Governments are amoral creatures. Libertarians may romanticise individual responsibility, but it is merely a reaction to opponents who romanticise big government and democracy.

    We would never have had one scientist or philosopher if we didn't have a social safety net of some sort or another to allow them to concentrate on those endeavors rather than their own survival.
    This, however, is pure nonsense. Even pre-state societies did not spend every waking moment just trying to survive; they had members who specialised in intellectual pursuits; they created rich mythologies, charted the stars, expended energies on creating monuments. There is even a stereotype of the young artists, inventors, and intellectuals who sacrificed material well-being to pursue their hobbies and interests; some of the greatest works or art and scientific breakthroughs have come from such people. Private businesses continue to do research and development today, and there is an entire industry, employing hundreds and thousands, devoted to publishing intellectual works which the public demand.

    The government does a lot to encourage science and philosophy, no doubt, because it subsidises it heavily. However, the notion that we would never have had one scientist or philosopher but for government and taxes? Poppycock. You may as well say that we wouldn't have roads or water or education.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  2. #72
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    This, however, is pure nonsense. Even pre-state societies did not spend every waking moment just trying to survive; they had members who specialised in intellectual pursuits; they created rich mythologies, charted the stars, expended energies on creating monuments. There is even a stereotype of the young artists, inventors, and intellectuals who sacrificed material well-being to pursue their hobbies and interests; some of the greatest works or art and scientific breakthroughs have come from such people. Private businesses continue to do research and development today, and there is an entire industry, employing hundreds and thousands, devoted to publishing intellectual works which the public demand.

    The government does a lot to encourage science and philosophy, no doubt, because it subsidises it heavily. However, the notion that we would never have had one scientist or philosopher but for government and taxes? Poppycock. You may as well say that we wouldn't have roads or water or education.
    Perhaps we have a different idea of what qualifies as a government, because I think we wouldn't have had roads, we would not have had a system of water distribution, and education is a very abstract concept so I am going to say we wouldn't have institutionalized education, that in fact first appeared quite a while after government and taxes. I'll not that it's kind of pointless to mention government and taxes separately, as the two were born at the same time and have always been together.

    The matter of science and philosophy comes down to division of labor. The most primitive peoples' had virtually none to speak of.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #73
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You know that I think all of you are freer with taxes than you would be without them? Taxes are necessary to make possible a system that affords you opportunities you'd never have without it.
    Bullshit. Taxes is theft and redistribution of wealth, but don't create it.

    I'm not sure why so many people romanticize complete responsibility for oneself.
    We don't romanticize, it's simply justice.

    That amounts to no leisure to pay attention to anything else. We would never have had one scientist or philosopher if we didn't have a social safety net of some sort or another to allow them to concentrate on those endeavors rather than their own survival.
    A capitalist economy is an economy where people are specalised in some activities, letting other people free to be specialised in other activities. There's farmer who work for the survival of tons of other people in exange of money, and there's philosophers who can forget the necessity of survival because a capitalist economy makes more food available for a cheaper price.
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  4. #74
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I really think I should let this go, but there's just one statement I keep thinking about, so I can't.



    This would only be applicable if everyone had equal power. That is to say:

    1: Everyone somehow has a weapon in the first place.
    2: These weapons are of equal quality.
    3: The people are of equal physical fitness and skill in using them.
    4: No group of people cooperate as a fighting force greater than the people they are targeting.


    You're being very naive. You are talking in ideals. You want a society where everyone can protect themselves. You have no proposition for how we could achieve it.

    The naive is you believing taht public police is enough to protect people with efficiency. For that, it would be necessary to put one cop behind each people, which is impossible. I ssimply say that individuals are free to have a gun in order to protect them.

    Presumably none of those conditions will be met. As such, some collection of people will find themselves in a position where their power over some other collection of people is great enough as to make the benefit of attacking greater than the cost, and even better than the ratio yielded by not attacking at all. Once this happens, and one group has subjugation another by force, the victorious group can reap more resources, accrue more power, and position themselves to gain from attacking yet another group. Before you know it, you have a society built on military power that is far more brutal and unfair than a contemporary social democracy.
    Sorry, but you simply rely on the myth of "the war of every against every", wich is completely fictional and unrealistic.
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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  5. #75
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    Glad I've stayed out of this.

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Oh, they don't have to rely on my opinions -- not if they can read.

    I am not a libertarian. They have their flaws and I have mine, and I think it is unfair to try to condemn them by association.
    Believe everything you read and you'd eat everything you see.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Perhaps we have a different idea of what qualifies as a government, because I think we wouldn't have had roads, we would not have had a system of water distribution, and education is a very abstract concept so I am going to say we wouldn't have institutionalized education, that in fact first appeared quite a while after government and taxes. I'll not that it's kind of pointless to mention government and taxes separately, as the two were born at the same time and have always been together.

    The matter of science and philosophy comes down to division of labor. The most primitive peoples' had virtually none to speak of.
    I'm waiting for an earth shattering response to this like "Some authors I believe are smarter than you disagree" or even "you cant read".

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    The naive is you believing taht public police is enough to protect people with efficiency. For that, it would be necessary to put one cop behind each people, which is impossible. I ssimply say that individuals are free to have a gun in order to protect them.
    And privatisation solves this how? If gun ownership voids crime and guarantees safety why isnt the USA totally crime free?

    Sorry, but you simply rely on the myth of "the war of every against every", wich is completely fictional and unrealistic.
    You're right. Its not a war of all against all, its the class war, a society of rabbits ruled by stoats. A lot of the rabbits think its for the best, your posts are a case in point.

  9. #79
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And privatisation solves this how?
    Private compagnies are more efficient than public services because it is submit to concurence and necessity of competitivity.

    If gun ownership voids crime and guarantees safety why isnt the USA totally crime free?
    It improve it, not gurantees a total security.

    You're right. Its not a war of all against all, its the class war, a society of rabbits ruled by stoats. A lot of the rabbits think its for the best, your posts are a case in point.
    Class war is another invention. Marxist invention.
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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  10. #80
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    A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.

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