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  1. #61
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its a rich man's paradise, state that never interfers with them and some how they can dodge paying for and is a police state for the rest of us.
    It's far more easy to be poor in a capitalist society than in a socialist society, there's more opportunities to improve your condition and the global level of development increase easily. If you are poor in a socialist country, you are basically condamned to assistantship...if you are lucky!

    The irony of using the mafia as a metaphor for government is that the mafia IS a private capitalist enterprise.
    No. Mafia don't really have any buisness on their own, like capitalist (capitalist is about property of means of production) they simply use agression to racket enterprises in exange of protection. Like the state. You show that you don't know what you are talking about and you loose again.

    Whatever the metaphors, ALL the predictions of the austrians, Hayek and Mise, that simple welfare regimes and pensions would inevitably result in fascist totalitarian regimes failed to materialise
    They say that it is a road to serfdom, not necessarly fascism in the italian sense. And it is fundamentally true.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's far more easy to be poor in a capitalist society than in a socialist society, there's more opportunities to improve your condition and the global level of development increase easily. If you are poor in a socialist country, you are basically condamned to assistantship...if you are lucky!
    @ political fantasy.

    No. Mafia don't really have any buisness on their own, like capitalist (capitalist is about property of means of production) they simply use agression to racket enterprises in exange of protection. Like the state. You show that you don't know what you are talking about and you loose again.
    I loose? I think if you could construct sentences I'd be more inclined to treat your points as warranting attention. No. When I think about it I still wouldnt, they're the stock libertarian rhetoric and not much related to reality.

    They say that it is a road to serfdom, not necessarly fascism in the italian sense. And it is fundamentally true.
    Hayek says it in the road to serfdom, he was predicting that the welfare state and beverage plan in the UK would result in a regime like Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy. It never happened. It was ridiculous to suggest it would even. Mise has said it about pretty much every public service or intervention in the economy, so decent roads are tantamount to the holocaust.

    That's just how ridiculous it is and I cant believe I'm wasting my time even posting about it.

    If you read some of those same authors writing, such as Intellectuals and Socialism, they dont even flatter their readers, they suggest that the average reader is a dumbass who's too easily impressed by hopes, dreams and utopian fictions and Hayek was attempting to pull of the same thing when he wrote Road To Serfdom. At least he bemoaned the lack of decent opposition to his ideas and suggested they shouldnt be taken literally, which resulted in Mise accusing him of being a socialist and many in the US dismissing him as a social democrat, which just shows the sort of mentality which is at work.

  3. #63
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    @ political fantasy.
    Prove that it's fantasy.

    Oh wait, you can't because you have not argument as ussual.


    I loose? I think if you could construct sentences I'd be more inclined to treat your points as warranting attention. No. When I think about it I still wouldnt, they're the stock libertarian rhetoric and not much related to reality.
    If you compare mafia with buisness, you are out of touch with reality because you don't understand what you are talking about.


    Hayek says it in the road to serfdom, he was predicting that the welfare state and beverage plan in the UK would result in a regime like Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy. It never happened.
    It never happened yet.

    He simply wanted to show that the escalate to nazism and fascist regime began with a quest for welfare state and how socialism lead to nazism and fascism.

    That's just how ridiculous it is and I cant believe I'm wasting my time even posting about it.
    You should'nt waste your time if you had any argument to explain why it is ridiculous, but you basicaly have not except your blankers and prejudices.

    If you read some of those same authors writing, such as Intellectuals and Socialism, they dont even flatter their readers, they suggest that the average reader is a dumbass who's too easily impressed by hopes, dreams and utopian fictions

    Humm? Have you read Hegel, St Simon of others? Tons od dream hopes and utopians here. Libertarian are not utopist, they simply say that a free society is more jsut and efficient, not that it can't be hard to live in.

    and Hayek was attempting to pull of the same thing when he wrote Road To Serfdom. At least he bemoaned the lack of decent opposition to his ideas and suggested they shouldnt be taken literally, which resulted in Mise accusing him of being a socialist and many in the US dismissing him as a social democrat, which just shows the sort of mentality which is at work.
    I don't see any problem here. Hayek is a "soft" libertarian, he's actually a classical liberal and a conservative, he was even in favor of a modest welfare state, wich is often seen as too close to socialism by some libertartians. Leftists think Hakek is an extremist wich simply shows how dumb they are. If Mises had seriously thought Hayek was socialist they would have never collaborated.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its a rich man's paradise, state that never interfers with them and some how they can dodge paying for and is a police state for the rest of us.
    That isn't what I said. In fact, the power to collect taxes is one area that government should be very strong. That doesn't mean it should tax a lot, though it might, but rather than it needs to effectively collect whatever taxes it needs to enforce its rules and execute its plans. The important thing is to limit the scope of government activity, and that includes limiting its ability to wage wars in far off countries as much it includes limiting its ability to pay peoples' medical bills.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The irony of using the mafia as a metaphor for government is that the mafia IS a private capitalist enterprise. Its the epitome of hardcore free markets and its not pretty, I mean how does the mafia deal with competition? As opposed to states? In the UK the state has given tax money to "stimulate" competition, simply given away to private individuals who transfer it off shore to untaxable accounts, I thought competition simply was and didnt need to be created or subsidised, so the free market logic goes anyway.
    The mafia is not the "epitome" of a "private capitalist enterprise." Do not confuse competition in general with the concept of market competition. Yes, the mafia compete, but they do so with threats and violence, not by satisfying consumer demands for products with a better trade-off between cost and quality.

    Maybe you don't care what your intellectual opponents actually think. Maybe you just want to go the internet and spout ill-informed criticism. Perhaps you do not care about persuading anyone that they're wrong. Could be you would rather just score points with people who are as similarly misinformed as you. If so, then continue on as you are. Good job.

    Whatever the metaphors, ALL the predictions of the austrians, Hayek and Mise, that simple welfare regimes and pensions would inevitably result in fascist totalitarian regimes failed to materialise, it was about as accurate as Marxist predictions about the state whithering away, so I dont see how you can treat the rest of their theories as credible when the crux of their argument, their central prediction, has fallen flat.
    Hayek's argument in The Road to Serfdom was not a slippery slope prediction. It was a warning, and one that many people took seriously. Perhaps one of the reasons why Hayek's worse case scenario did not come to pass was because a lot of people read The Road to Serfdom. Mises made similar warnings as Hayek, but one must remember that Mises spent much of his intellectual career predicting the downfall of communist regimes and explaining why it would happen; most of his intellectual opponents were full-blown socialists. Unlike Marx, Mises was vindicated by history.

    I don't suppose you really know anything about these two men or had read any of their works, but probably only know of them second-hand by way of critics. That's fine. I know lots of people that I "disagree" with but who I only know second-hand by way of critics, but you have to be careful (by the way, it's "Mises," not "Mise").

    In any case, did you know that Hayek supported, at one time or other, benefits for the unemployed and catastrophic health insurance provided by the government? People are complicated, especially when they are much smarter than you, and I pretty sure both Mises and Hayek were much smarter than Lark. Just sayin'.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    pretty sure both Mises and Hayek were much smarter than Lark. Just sayin'.
    Well seeing how you're wrong about so much else I'm not sure anyone's likely to rely on your opinions of my intelligence.

    Posting to an imagined gallery of like minded individuals and making arrogant insults? Ah, the cut and thrust of libertarian 'reasoning'

  7. #67
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Speed Gavroche should read stuff by Mancur Olson.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well seeing how you're wrong about so much else I'm not sure anyone's likely to rely on your opinions of my intelligence.
    Oh, they don't have to rely on my opinions -- not if they can read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Posting to an imagined gallery of like minded individuals and making arrogant insults? Ah, the cut and thrust of libertarian 'reasoning'
    I am not a libertarian. They have their flaws and I have mine, and I think it is unfair to try to condemn them by association.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #69
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    You know that I think all of you are freer with taxes than you would be without them? Taxes are necessary to make possible a system that affords you opportunities you'd never have without it.

    I'm not sure why so many people romanticize complete responsibility for oneself. That amounts to no leisure to pay attention to anything else. We would never have had one scientist or philosopher if we didn't have a social safety net of some sort or another to allow them to concentrate on those endeavors rather than their own survival.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #70
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I really think I should let this go, but there's just one statement I keep thinking about, so I can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    No, because in a truly free society, every people can carry weapon, so they would hardly take risk to attack another one because of fear of the ripost.
    This would only be applicable if everyone had equal power. That is to say:

    1: Everyone somehow has a weapon in the first place.
    2: These weapons are of equal quality.
    3: The people are of equal physical fitness and skill in using them.
    4: No group of people cooperate as a fighting force greater than the people they are targeting.

    Presumably none of those conditions will be met. As such, some collection of people will find themselves in a position where their power over some other collection of people is great enough as to make the benefit of attacking greater than the cost, and even better than the ratio yielded by not attacking at all. Once this happens, and one group has subjugation another by force, the victorious group can reap more resources, accrue more power, and position themselves to gain from attacking yet another group. Before you know it, you have a society built on military power that is far more brutal and unfair than a contemporary social democracy.

    You're being very naive. You are talking in ideals. You want a society where everyone can protect themselves. You have no proposition for how we could achieve it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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