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  1. #41
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I've been seriously contemplating whether or not they can be replaced with cooperatives. You should keep in mind that there was a time when corporations basically didn't exist, and there was a time when people wrote that monarchies would always exist.



    Lots of things that we have since discontinued contributed to the progress of civilization. And to give you an example of how progression and development aren't always the product of purely good things, I'll point out that Russia was industrialized at break neck speed, with products such as massively increased literacy rates, thanks to utter totalitarianism. I know that those in favor of that totalitarianism used your very argument in defending themselves.
    It's easy enough to increase the literacy rate by starving to death 50,000,000 ignorant peasants.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #42
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    It's easy enough to increase the literacy rate by starving to death 50,000,000 ignorant peasants.
    First of all, I'm pretty sure 50 million is an inflation.

    Secondly, Would you deny that literacy was significantly increased among the population that wasn't killed?

    I think you're missing the point. Things one calls progress often come at very high prices. That something spurred advancement should not make it immune to rejection.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    First of all, I'm pretty sure 50 million is an inflation.

    Secondly, Would you deny that literacy was significantly increased among the population that wasn't killed?

    I think you're missing the point. Things one calls progress often come at very high prices. That something spurred advancement should not make it immune to rejection.
    One person's death is too high a price. But I'm glad you didn't deny the tragedy. The surge toward industrialization was helped by farmers who managed to escape into the cities. They were quickly forced into slave labor along with the rest of the population.

    Just trying to keep it real.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  4. #44
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Nice, for the moment I have started to think that this will be responsless thread.



    As I said I am not an expert on definitions of libertarian ideas. Actually I am not even sure that I have ever met libertarian face to face.


    However this is what got me wondering since I dont see how this system can be uphold if the trends continue. Plus I got the impression that many people in USA no matter if they are libertarian or not dont understand the impact of their image a well as the fact that many countries want to outgrow you or overpower you. But in the meanwhile you continue to keep focus on you and your rights/wishes. It is almost as most people dont understand that you are in the middle of a serious war. (and I am not refering to "war on terror")



    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post

    With a price-tag that cheap (relative to what?), you may have a thousand prospective buyers out there. Thus the long waiting lists in socialist countries. I see corruption waiting in the wings. But that's nice that this one family is now happy, stable, and secure. The other 999 will just have to sit on their thumbs.

    Don't you think that this is a little bit stereotypical ?


    Also I never said that this is the main engine/model. As i said this is only a trick. And trick is usually a short-term event. (reversion of rules in order to gain advantage)



    You said your scenario but some different scenario is also possible.


    You have family that lives in a rural area. They can survive but their impact is minimal. However then goverment builds a new neigbourhood in some large city and sells this living space under minimal price.

    So what happnes ? The rural family sells cheaply their house to some guy that wants to have a house for resting on a countryside. (maybe just for resting, maybe his is from rural area himself and wants to experiance that life once again now when he older and has the money, or maybe the place will be a lovenest ... it does not matter)

    So the guy gets the house and family basically cames for free into the city. (their account got and lost the same a sum of money)
    What in the end means that childern can get much better education. Plus all of them are now stimulating the economy much more than when they lived in isolated rural area. What means that the local companies will have bigger profit. And when they have bigger profit they have easier time in challenging american comapanies.
    What in the end diverts more money into this x society instead of USA. And then USA has to rise taxes organize social programs etc to cover the loses. While the country x has more money than before as well as those children that will grow up into some kind of a engineers or experts. What wasnt the case some 30 years ago and what will further decrease the impact of US in the world. Since there will be more competition.


    As far as corruption goes..... for you it is basically irrelvent. Corrution only changes who gets the apartment first in the case that people at power decide to do this. But the construction is often so massive that there is no need for corruption actually.
    However since most of people have similar skills ... it is irrelvent for the argument if there is corruption or not. Unless of course you are alergic to corruption.
    Plus there is this side effect that homeless people are basically unexistant category where I live. (what allows them to consume more)


    Actually I am living in a place where most of people would give up on many liberties in the case that it will bring them economic/matherial uprise or advantage.






    I am not saying the mentioned model is always the case but this is one of the models that can challange american way od thinking without many of them realizing what exactly happened. Which is because you are not familiar or used to capital involvement of goverment into the society as well with the fact that somewhere else many people are not that much into personal freedoms. (if we dont count basic ones)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Id say the people are much better at deciding whats good for them than the market is.
    The people are the market

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    ...I am not saying the mentioned model is always the case but this is one of the models that can challange american way od thinking without many of them realizing what exactly happened. Which is because you are not familiar or used to capital involvement of goverment into the society as well with the fact that somewhere else many people are not that much into personal freedoms. (if we dont count basic ones)
    I see you've moved on from a non-profit scenario to one where making a profit is allowed for. And I agree that in other countries the people are used to having their collective neck stepped on by their government. They expect it. I know that in some European cultures there is far more envy, thus allowing a psychological inroad for socialism. In those countries, the soil has already been prepared for the socialist seed to be planted.

    But the US was founded upon a quite different model, and the psychology of the average American is very different. Part of the motive for the war that you mentioned is that people in European countries don't believe anybody should stand out and be different. Then they take that same attitude to the national level. The US stands out as a model of relative freedom among countries with relative amounts of slavery. European egalitarianism demands that everything be equal, although there is no rational reason for this.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #47
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Oddly, I do notice that non-American libertarians seem to parrot the US constitution even if they are 8,000 miles away from anywhere that it's legally relevant.
    That's because its a brief, famous and readily available document based in large part on an explicit attempt to put certain classical liberal principles (most notably limited government, the separation of powers, and so-called 'negative' rights) into practice; its not legally relevant outside the United States, but its theoretical relevance is not constrained by geography. And, of course, the internet originated in the United States and its primary medium is the English language, which is a productive framework for the propogation and export of American sources and perspectives.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    The people are the market
    I'd like a little clarification on that, presently that's just a soundbite.

    I could say The people are democracy or The people are the soviet or The people are society and it would mean the same.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    That's because its a brief, famous and readily available document based in large part on an explicit attempt to put certain classical liberal principles (most notably limited government, the separation of powers, and so-called 'negative' rights) into practice; its not legally relevant outside the United States, but its theoretical relevance is not constrained by geography. And, of course, the internet originated in the United States and its primary medium is the English language, which is a productive framework for the propogation and export of American sources and perspectives.
    Its not the most libertarian constitution I can think of, in fact there are others which were never properly adhered to which were more libertarian but not conceived as a vehicle for or best defence of ruling interests and capitalism.

  10. #50
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    People here seem to not realize that the so hated corporations would'nt have any power without the state and all the taxes they pay to stae with do-gooder-zeal. And don't realize either that the credit bubble would never happen that big if there was not the state behind to assure the safe of big banks in case of bankrupt, letting them allowed to every sort of irresponsibles behavior.

    I laughed at the "without the state, buisness become state". First, it's wrong, second, if buisness and state are the same thing, why do you prefer the state?
    Libertarianism is not about belief that everything will be good, simply that they will be less bad and about refusal to be a candidate for assistantship in exange of coercition.
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