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  1. #31
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    Obviously you're talking about Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 08-205 (2010) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen...ion_Commission)

    It was a 5-4 split.

    All it takes is one judicial appointment and there you go.

    The level of fatalism on the left always makes me laugh.

    It's as if you'd rather complain than do anything about it.

    But I guess I'll leave you to your devices, and get back to mine.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think a business or a collusion of businesses can do many awful things without the help of a government, and in the absence of a government it is inevitable that some such organization will effectively become the new government.
    Maybe. In any event, the market still enforces its own form of governance.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #33
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    It certainly does. How is this that much different than the aristocracy controlling everything? I. do. not. get. it.

    "Yes people with money and power know best!"

    The truth is, there are some really stupid and unethical rich people. Money doesn't guarentee intelligence, nor does it guarentee wisdom.

    However, keeping the masses less educated has long been a tool for social control, which is what it appears some of the anarcho-capitalist libertarians would like to do.

    Bravo. One step forward, three steps back.

  4. #34
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Maybe. In any event, the market still enforces its own form of governance.
    So does a despot. My point is that there is always governance. There is always government. Is the particular governance in question any good? Can it be better? Those are the important questions.

    To me, the market left entirely alone makes a terrible a government.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Maybe. In any event, the market still enforces its own form of governance.
    Id say the people are much better at deciding whats good for them than the market is.
    +10% Crit Chance

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So does a despot. My point is that there is always governance. There is always government. Is the particular governance in question any good? Can it be better? Those are the important questions.

    To me, the market left entirely alone makes a terrible a government.
    The law of supply and demand is like a despot you can never depose. So you might as well learn to live with it, and not work against it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The law of supply and demand is like a despot you can never depose. So you might as well learn to live with it, and not work against it.
    I'm not necessarily resisting supply and demand, but it does not seem to require many of the things libertarians often claim it does. Furthermore, if you subject some things to supply and demand, so-called "market forces", I believe you can get away with some things not being left to supply and demand alone, and for the better. It depends on how you look at it, though. Would you say universal health care is subject to supply and demand, or an attempt to defy it?

    You'll also never get rid of the presence of government in business, and in fact the trend has been that as technology advances and population grows, so does the government grow larger and become more complex. You might as well learn to live with it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #38
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    The law of supply and demand is like a despot you can never depose.
    Likewise corporations.

    We're about as likely to get rid of them as we are Nitrogen.

    It much easier to create a future of your choosing when working with an established system than against it.

    Moreover why would you want to get rid of corps entirely? They count for much of the progress civilization has made since the industrial revolution, and allowed our progress to accelerate as it has in those intervening years.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Id say the people are much better at deciding whats good for them than the market is.
    (That sounds like utilitarianism and consumerism.) Get rid of the market's control, and you still have the law of supply and demand.

    People's decisions are easily swayed by factors other than free-will. The "good" can be very subjective. Addictions drive demand. Haven't the people decided that cigarettes and alcohol are good for them? Haven't the people decided that junk food is good for them? Haven't the people decided that spending more than they earn is good for them? So what do you mean by "good"?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Likewise corporations.

    We're about as likely to get rid of them as we are Nitrogen.

    It much easier to create a future of your choosing when working with an established system than against it.
    I've been seriously contemplating whether or not they can be replaced with cooperatives. You should keep in mind that there was a time when corporations basically didn't exist, and there was a time when people wrote that monarchies would always exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Moreover why would you want to get rid of corps entirely? They count for much of the progress civilization has made since the industrial revolution, and allowed our progress to accelerate as it has in those intervening years.
    Lots of things that we have since discontinued contributed to the progress of civilization. And to give you an example of how progression and development aren't always the product of purely good things, I'll point out that Russia was industrialized at break neck speed, with products such as massively increased literacy rates, thanks to utter totalitarianism. I know that those in favor of that totalitarianism used your very argument in defending themselves.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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