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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    But it's like that now, only without all the legal drugs and gay marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I'm sure you're right. The implication of the OP is that "socialism" is the elimination of profit-motive, and therefore the selling of everything at cost ("real price"). But supporting government control in this scheme is a constant drain on the economy. (Nobody cares to consider the economic burden involved in maintaining a socialist government which only tries to grow and grow.) Scarcity of goods and services is the result. Capitalism (which is the real topic of the OP, not libertarianism) uses market forces to keep scarcity within certain economic constraints. Socialism cannot admit the presence of scarcity; in a sense, capitalism requires it. Scarcity is simply part of the law of supply and demand. Scarcity is one of the forces driving market prices. Scarcity in a capitalist economy drives prices up, so that fewer people can afford the product, thus less product moves out and the equation is balanced. In the socialist example of the housing market (where there is supposedly no real market), the so-called "real price" is determined by the cost of building materials, employees and other expenses, etc., and this assumes that the cost of everything stays the same. But the market forces the cost of everything up in a scarcity situation. The presence of cheap houses by itself forces scarcity as the supply goes down, and the government can't keep up with the constant demand for more cheap houses. Thus the government is forced to pump more and more resources into the economy to keep costs down (subsidies, or as he called it, subvention). And eventually the law of supply and demand has its revenge since resources are not and never will be infinite. The law of supply and demand will not go away on the basis of a socialist's wish that everything be cheap and affordable.
    I'm a socialist by the definition that workers own the means of productions, not that everything will be non-profit. However, I do think there are a number of areas in this society that are current driven by the profit motive that would work better without it.

    On the subject of needing infinite resources, it strikes me that capitalism is possibly not any better. Capitalism seems to have created rampant consumerism with no realistic bounds.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #22
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    The corporations themselves aren't the problem.

    The problem is the ability of special interests (generally) to influence legislation.

    The problem specifically being that these interests are able to throw such quantities of money at congress that they basically drown out the voices of the voting populace.

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The corporations themselves aren't the problem.

    The problem is the ability of special interests (generally) to influence legislation.

    The problem specifically being that these interests are able to throw such quantities of money at congress that they basically drown out the voices of the voting populace.
    How would you change that problem by a means other than legislation? And if you attempted to change it by legislation, wouldn't corporations be the biggest force acting to keep it from happening, since most of those special interests have something to do with a corporation? Where do they get those large quantities of money from?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #24
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Indeed. Right now killing corporations is probably the biggest thing on the to-do list for humanity. I don't know how to do it, but I would like cooperatives to replace corporations, except for situations where corporations are replaced by government.

    Anyhow, while the corruption is everywhere, it is curious why it is more present in some places than others.
    I share your diagnosis but not your prescription. Honestly, if the US still wasn't the best place for a young white dude to make his money then I'd probably leave.



  5. #25
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    Easy, campaign finance reform that limits donations to XX,XXX amount.

    Create legislative bars to certain types of lobbying.

    Etc. etc. (I've written all my thoughts out on this before, but don't feel like taking the hours it would take to rehash all my opinions on the subject)

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm a socialist by the definition that workers own the means of productions, not that everything will be non-profit. However, I do think there are a number of areas in this society that are current driven by the profit motive that would work better without it.

    On the subject of needing infinite resources, it strikes me that capitalism is possibly not any better. Capitalism seems to have created rampant consumerism with no realistic bounds.
    That's why it's called "consumerism" and not "capitalism." Consumerism artificially stimulates larger demand, bigger rewards, "bread and circuses." The law of supply and demand will eventually balance the equation. But when the government causes a housing crunch by lowering interest rates, the equation is balanced much more severely than it would be otherwise. Interest rates are also a market-driven product of economic forces, since they are nothing more than the cost of loaning a supply of money in order to satiate a certain demand. And there will always be a demand, as humans are by nature infinitely greedy.

    The only realistic bound is supply and demand. "Big government" has many clever ways of circumventing this law, and of course "big business" is clever at using the government to circumvent it also. In the perfect libertarian society, where government control over the economy is severely limited, this cannot happen.

    On the other hand, since pure capitalism has never been tried, it's possible there are problems with it that we cannot become aware of without actually putting it into effect.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I think a business or a collusion of businesses can do many awful things without the help of a government, and in the absence of a government it is inevitable that some such organization will effectively become the new government.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #28
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    It's like... the corporations man.

    I've got some books you should read.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Easy, campaign finance reform that limits donations to XX,XXX amount
    The supreme court recently declared that limiting the bribesdonations by Corporations to politicians is unconstitutional. Because if a massive soulless corporate entity cant give obscene amounts of money to those in power THEN NONE OF US ARE TRULY FREE.
    +10% Crit Chance

  10. #30
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    This.

    Or else they're idealistic dreamers who listen to Lew Rockwell and imagine that everyone is going to play nice and get EXACTLY what they deserve and everything is just going to be SO FAIR.

    This is actually why I tend to think I'm an Ne dom rather than an Se dom. I can see how anarcho-capitalism at its most abstract level fails just as much as communism. It baffles me how anyone can miss it.
    I will never understand how a rational human being can say: "Hey instead of giving power to our elected officials who we can then remove from power lets give it to a bunch of RANDIAN SUPERMEN who arent accountable in the least for their actions!"
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