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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Longggg essay, op. I can't read it all. All I can say is that socialism works well for those who have political power. And libertarianism works well for those who have economic power. Both systems leave about 90% (let's say) of humanity out of the loop. Both systems are about the elite (whether political or economic) tossing the rest of us a few crumbs to keep us placated while they lead a life of luxury.

    But libertarians I have seen to be quite adept at handling mental exercises such as this one:

    "The state X can create a company that bulds houses and apartment bulidings without desire for profit and they only care that the company does not go into huge minuses. And then in the end they sell this living space to a familiy for a pretty low price. Let say 50 000 dollars, since that is a real price of a empty apartment/house when they are mass produced and there is no profit. So what happens ? You get more stable familiy since they solved their main problem pretty easily. Plus now this family does not have a loan that will be paying out to some bank for the next 30 years. But instead they will have much more money to buy goods that are product of real economy. What is also pretty good since the money is distributed more equally and supports real producing jobs."

    With a price-tag that cheap (relative to what?), you may have a thousand prospective buyers out there. Thus the long waiting lists in socialist countries. I see corruption waiting in the wings. But that's nice that this one family is now happy, stable, and secure. The other 999 will just have to sit on their thumbs.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The moment you mentioned socialism you created a need to define socialism on top of defining libertarianism. It would probably would have been easier if we just stuck to non-libertarianism up to this point, especially since it's probably going to be that case that the definitions given will allow for systems neither socialist nor libertarian.
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  3. #13
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    Without the state, business becomes the state, just as church can also become the state.

    Only foolish people don't realize that in order for a society to properly work no one element can have all of the control.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The moment you mentioned socialism you created a need to define socialism on top of defining libertarianism. It would probably would have been easier if we just stuck to non-libertarianism up to this point, especially since it's probably going to be that case that the definitions given will allow for systems neither socialist nor libertarian.
    He also made the subtle implication that Capitalism = Libertarianism.

    Without the state, business becomes the state, just as church can also become the state.
    But dont you understand? Unlike the feeble and corrupt public sector the private sector is run by 100% honest, uncorruptable Randian supermen!
    +10% Crit Chance

  5. #15
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Without the state, business becomes the state, just as church can also become the state.

    Only foolish people don't realize that in order for a society to properly work no one element can have all of the control.
    But it's like that now, only without all the legal drugs and gay marriage.



  6. #16
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    Business has already become the state.

    It's called lobbying, and all the cool kids are doing it.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The moment you mentioned socialism you created a need to define socialism on top of defining libertarianism. It would probably would have been easier if we just stuck to non-libertarianism up to this point, especially since it's probably going to be that case that the definitions given will allow for systems neither socialist nor libertarian.
    I'm sure you're right. The implication of the OP is that "socialism" is the elimination of profit-motive, and therefore the selling of everything at cost ("real price"). But supporting government control in this scheme is a constant drain on the economy. (Nobody cares to consider the economic burden involved in maintaining a socialist government which only tries to grow and grow.) Scarcity of goods and services is the result. Capitalism (which is the real topic of the OP, not libertarianism) uses market forces to keep scarcity within certain economic constraints. Socialism cannot admit the presence of scarcity; in a sense, capitalism requires it. Scarcity is simply part of the law of supply and demand. Scarcity is one of the forces driving market prices. Scarcity in a capitalist economy drives prices up, so that fewer people can afford the product, thus less product moves out and the equation is balanced. In the socialist example of the housing market (where there is supposedly no real market), the so-called "real price" is determined by the cost of building materials, employees and other expenses, etc., and this assumes that the cost of everything stays the same. But the market forces the cost of everything up in a scarcity situation. The presence of cheap houses by itself forces scarcity as the supply goes down, and the government can't keep up with the constant demand for more cheap houses. Thus the government is forced to pump more and more resources into the economy to keep costs down (subsidies, or as he called it, subvention). And eventually the law of supply and demand has its revenge since resources are not and never will be infinite. The law of supply and demand will not go away on the basis of a socialist's wish that everything be cheap and affordable.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
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    Yeah...that's working out really well for our economy...no restrictions on big business created a huge bubble of debt that burst...since the recession CEOs are actually making bigger salaries while unemployment is at a horrendous high...the negative consequences of capitalism are already evident...I don't think allowing it to further spiral out of control is good for anyone...though it truthfully might help if some aspects of the government stopped siding with big business and there was more of an emphasis on small business.

    There's going to be an increase in homeless people and crime if more social programs get cut. This isn't going to be a nice or pretty thing. The United States is already a place of absolutely shitty schools and violence for a first world country, watching it escalate isn't my idea of a good time.

  9. #19
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    But it's like that now, only without all the legal drugs and gay marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Business has already become the state.

    It's called lobbying, and all the cool kids are doing it.
    Indeed. Right now killing corporations is probably the biggest thing on the to-do list for humanity. I don't know how to do it, but I would like cooperatives to replace corporations, except for situations where corporations are replaced by government.

    Anyhow, while the corruption is everywhere, it is curious why it is more present in some places than others.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    But dont you understand? Unlike the feeble and corrupt public sector the private sector is run by 100% honest, uncorruptable Randian supermen!
    This.

    Or else they're idealistic dreamers who listen to Lew Rockwell and imagine that everyone is going to play nice and get EXACTLY what they deserve and everything is just going to be SO FAIR.

    This is actually why I tend to think I'm an Ne dom rather than an Se dom. I can see how anarcho-capitalism at its most abstract level fails just as much as communism. It baffles me how anyone can miss it.

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