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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Libertarianism is a precaution against absolute power. it is a balancing force because it allows everyone to attain power. other systems attempt to control people and limit their power. the problem is, it is impossible to do this to everyone and the ones who are able to avoid having their power suppressed will only gain more power once they surpass the system. people are not meant to be controlled and suppressed by others. we're meant to be free and allowed to reach our full potential.
    Libertarianism is an ideology for the masses, so they can like their objective indentured status and suck it while the mega-rich play their games like Bond villains, engaging in Nero like forms of excess, wall st. dodging what legal consequences there are for anyone on main st. behaving the way they do.

    Its the ideology for the sort of debased individual who likes phrases like "I could buy and sell you" or prides themselves on that sort of behaviour. End of.

    If there's any limits on power what so ever its good fortune and chance rather than design which has brought that about, at the very best its the happy coincidence which results from a variety of contesting powers balancing each other out but libertarianism threatens any balance at all because it wants a winner takes all norm to prevail in what is already a hopelessly uneven and unfair playing field anyway.

    Its a much, much more perfectionist and deluded ideology than socialism any day of the week, much more dangerous because unlike socialism, which has been hopelessly confused with paternalism and myriad other things anyway, its liable to actually influence politicians, their cronnies, policy makes and the shape of things to come than socialism ever will.

  2. #122
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Libertarianism is an ideology for the masses, so they can like their objective indentured status and suck it while the mega-rich play their games like Bond villains, engaging in Nero like forms of excess, wall st. dodging what legal consequences there are for anyone on main st. behaving the way they do.

    Its the ideology for the sort of debased individual who likes phrases like "I could buy and sell you" or prides themselves on that sort of behaviour. End of.

    If there's any limits on power what so ever its good fortune and chance rather than design which has brought that about, at the very best its the happy coincidence which results from a variety of contesting powers balancing each other out but libertarianism threatens any balance at all because it wants a winner takes all norm to prevail in what is already a hopelessly uneven and unfair playing field anyway.

    Its a much, much more perfectionist and deluded ideology than socialism any day of the week, much more dangerous because unlike socialism, which has been hopelessly confused with paternalism and myriad other things anyway, its liable to actually influence politicians, their cronnies, policy makes and the shape of things to come than socialism ever will.
    Libertarianism is not "winner take all", that implies a 0 sum game. it's the opposite. if you are productive and engage in trading valuable goods and services, you will become wealthy and well off, but you will also do a lot of good for people in the process. in a free, Libertarian society, progress can only increase as more value is created, the cost of goods is driven down by competition and heightened supply. meanwhile, more businesses will pop up everywhere and this will result in higher wages and better treatment of employees as well as new value and more and more goods and services being created and eventually driven down in price. if someone is not successful in a truly libertarian society, it is there own fault
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  3. #123
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Libertarianism is not "winner take all", that implies a 0 sum game. it's the opposite. if you are productive and engage in trading valuable goods and services, you will become wealthy and well off, but you will also do a lot of good for people in the process. in a free, Libertarian society, progress can only increase as more value is created, the cost of goods is driven down by competition and heightened supply. meanwhile, more businesses will pop up everywhere and this will result in higher wages and better treatment of employees as well as new value and more and more goods and services being created and eventually driven down in price. if someone is not successful in a truly libertarian society, it is there own fault
    COME ON!!!! ANYONE WHO HAS SO MUCH AS PLAYED MONOPOLY KNOWS THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!!

  4. #124
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    COME ON!!!! ANYONE WHO HAS SO MUCH AS PLAYED MONOPOLY KNOWS THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!!
    Monopoly is an awesome game but I'm sorry, but such a comparison is ridiculous
    1) you can't create value you monopoly
    2) you don't have a choice of what to buy in monopoly
    3) monopolies are possilble IRL only with government backing (I've studied the history of several of them)
    4) monopoly incentivizes win/loose scenarios; Libertarianism incentivizes win/win scenarios

    Monopoly is a model of government sponsored corporatism, this is COMPLETELY different from Libertarianism and economic freedom
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Monopoly is an awesome game but I'm sorry, but such a comparison is ridiculous
    1) you can't create value you monopoly
    2) you don't have a choice of what to buy in monopoly
    3) monopolies are possilble IRL only with government backing (I've studied the history of several of them)
    4) monopoly incentivizes win/loose scenarios; Libertarianism incentivizes win/win scenarios

    Monopoly is a model of government sponsored corporatism, this is COMPLETELY different from Libertarianism and economic freedom
    Maybe Monopoly is REAL and Libertarianism is such a day dream it cant even exist as a bloudy board game!!!

    Also I'm searching and searching and searching and guess what, there's no damn government in the rules of monopoly, I thought perhaps there was a different rule book or I'd not played it in a long time but I was right, no government, players start, just as anyone who has been fortunate to inheret wealth or get an allowance from a trust fund would start, with a heap of cash, they then buy assets, they can beat one another essential point is it ends in unassailable monopoly, end off, and no one who enters the game late in the game has a hope in hell of really competiting with someone who has been playing already and bought assets.

    Now this is bloudy simple, perhaps not as simple as repeating "its the guvement", "the guvement is to blame", "the guvement" over and over like a broken record but it doesnt change the reality of the matter, most people out grow fairy tales but it looks like the Tea Party is going to clean up on the American public's particular addiction to them.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Libertarianism is an ideology for the masses
    Hem, no. Socialism is an ideology for the masses. Liberarianism is understood only by a tiny portion of humanity who really tried to know the truth.

    Its the ideology for the sort of debased individual who likes phrases like "I could buy and sell you" or prides themselves on that sort of behaviour. End of.
    No, libertarianism defend freedom and have always lust against enslavement. You prove again your lack of knowledge and/or intelectual honesty.

    If there's any limits on power what so ever its good fortune and chance rather than design which has brought that about, at the very best its the happy coincidence which results from a variety of contesting powers balancing each other
    It's precisely what libertarianism defend: in a world where every power has been destroyed, every person who want to get power on others must face the resistance of the 6 500 000 000 others basically.


    out but libertarianism threatens any balance at all because it wants a winner takes all norm to prevail in what is already a hopelessly uneven and unfair playing field anyway.
    A power don't need to be balanced by another power. It's bullshit. Power must be fought by the force of free people. Libertarianism advocate the supression of power, and if after it has been supressed, someone try to get power on others individuals again, just let theses individuals to kick his ass.

    Its a much, much more perfectionist
    No. It's not perfectionism, libertarians don't propose to make the things perfect like socialist do.

    its liable to actually influence politicians, their cronnies, policy makes and the shape of things to come than socialism ever will.
    No, libertarianism hardly influence politicians, because every politicians need a constant growth of the state to keep their job. To defend libertarianism is like saw the branch wich they are sit on.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    COME ON!!!! ANYONE WHO HAS SO MUCH AS PLAYED MONOPOLY KNOWS THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!!
    Monopoly is not reality. In real life, there's something called "economic growth", "enterprise", "creation of wealth", etc. Monopoly is just a limited baslet of stocks that gamers compete to get entirely.

    Maybe Monopoly is REAL and Libertarianism is such a day dream it cant even exist as a bloudy board game!!!
    A "maybe"? Is it all you have to prove your view? That reality is like monopoly? Haha, socialists are definetly laughable.
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  8. #128
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    Ideological catfights...eh I mean serious discussions like this remind me of Pierre Manent's observation of how liberalism always oscillates between the state or the economy as its main instrument. Same basic logic and ends, just different means.

    Gotta love manichean politics.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Gotta love manichean politics.
    True That.

    I'm never playing monopoly with these guys, they'll want to change the rules to fit their reality when it doesnt go to their plan.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Gotta love manichean politics.
    Who is suposed to be manichean?
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