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  1. #91
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I think I'm starting to lean towards libertarianism, at least in theory. I had always defaulted to liberalism, because conservatives had shown themselves to be pro-rich, and often place blame towards different people, like racial groups, or (esp. in the case of religious conservatives) notions of a golden age of morality ruined by modern generations; and I was not aware of libertarianism as a third alternative. It sounded like just more conservativism.
    (Because of the "less government" lingo, which I associated with conservativism. This before realizing the political scale was a 2D matrix, much like temperament; with libertarian vs authoritarian a distinct factor from right/left).
    It also spawned people like Murray and others, who try to resurrect stuff like genetic inferiority to bolster their crusade against government programs.

    But it looks like neither of the main parties have the answer (just now seeing the latest stuff on the president i.e. http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.81203...nomy-1.3083817, and how even some Democrats are saying he shouldn't seek reelection).

    And as far as reining in capitalism, what this site says is ultimately true: http://www.federalbudget.com/corpwelfare.html the conservative response seems to assume then that since that recourse is inevitable, then we should just give them whatever they want. and this has been done off and on (Like when people like us are struggling, everyone from preachers to financial counselors to conservative advice suggests we should cut back. Well, in trying to cut back both the mobile and cable this morning, we find that with the sharp price increases since signing up for their service, due to deregulation, you can't save any money by scaling back anything. If your original service was $40, you add some things, and this plus rate increases push it up anywhere from $150-over 200, yet to cut all the amenities, and perhaps reduce the service by half, you only save $20!) Yet in this current budget mess, people are still screaming "we're becoming socialist". Meanwhile, the link mentions Democrats thinking Obama has capitulated to the Republicans too much. No matter what he does, no one is happy, and they all accuse him of the worst of their opponent's flaws!

    All they do is blame each other, and neither really fixes anything when in power; at least not for long.

    I am still leary of the apparent libertarian philosophy of just pulling out all the stops (such as no Social Security; just let your children take care of you I heard at least one of them explain, etc). I don't think that's ever even been tested. It's probably why libertarianism doesn't catch on, even though it seems everyone is unhappy with the current two parties.

    Also, I still remain aware of the following points:
    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    But dont you understand? Unlike the feeble and corrupt public sector the private sector is run by 100% honest, uncorruptable Randian supermen!
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    This.
    Or else they're idealistic dreamers who listen to Lew Rockwell and imagine that everyone is going to play nice and get EXACTLY what they deserve and everything is just going to be SO FAIR.

    This is actually why I tend to think I'm an Ne dom rather than an Se dom. I can see how anarcho-capitalism at its most abstract level fails just as much as communism. It baffles me how anyone can miss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    I will never understand how a rational human being can say: "Hey instead of giving power to our elected officials who we can then remove from power lets give it to a bunch of RANDIAN SUPERMEN who aren't accountable in the least for their actions!"
    Because in theory, we could just take our business somewhere else, which would then force them to compete fairly. In practice, there seem to be all sorts of ways around this, just like they have ways around government control, and government has ways around the checks and balances of the election system.
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  2. #92
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Well, reframing the thread as "What would libertarians do?" for a moment, how would you all have resolved the riotting problem in the UK lately, no taxes, no police force.

  3. #93
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    Theres several strands of libertarianism, I will go with the minimal state one. This particular rioting problem would not have occured in a libertarian society. There will be taxation, but it would be Voluntary taxation. Studies show that individuals will give to government, paying voluntary taxes to support specific functions. They have the choice which gets the funding and which doesn't, instead of coercion and the money being devided for political reasons.
    One such specific function would be police.

  4. #94
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    At the core of libertarianism is the rejection of agression against another individual. This includes the government, which is why in free social and economic matters the government should stay out of it. It can only coerce people to do things, even a thing like collecting taxes. All it should provide is the tools for society to thrive. Sound money, the courts, national defence, policing and perhaps infrastructure. They must allow freedom for people to make their own choices, as long as they don't violate the rights of others.
    The primary function of a limited government would be to protect the liberty of the individual.

    Theres other types of libertarians, as there are other political wings.

  5. #95
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, reframing the thread as "What would libertarians do?" for a moment, how would you all have resolved the riotting problem in the UK lately, no taxes, no police force.
    It's as stupid as the russians in the 80s who believed that if the soviet union collapsed, there would not be any people anymore to priduce bread.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's as stupid as the russians in the 80s who believed that if the soviet union collapsed, there would not be any people anymore to priduce bread.
    Deflect, dodge and slabber about the soviet union.

    I dont know why I even bother reading what you libertarians have to say anymore because for the past five years at least its been the exact same thing.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Theres several strands of libertarianism, I will go with the minimal state one. This particular rioting problem would not have occured in a libertarian society. There will be taxation, but it would be Voluntary taxation. Studies show that individuals will give to government, paying voluntary taxes to support specific functions. They have the choice which gets the funding and which doesn't, instead of coercion and the money being devided for political reasons.
    One such specific function would be police.
    What studies? I call BS on this, where is there any evidence at all to demonstrate that the sorts of voluntarism which libertarianism ASSumes will become the norm have EVER been the norm or EVER could be the norm? Point to one instance, I CAN point to a stateless society today which is the exact anathema of all libertarian and capitalist theorising and that's Somalia, designated stateless by the UN because its actual authorities have failed so, so, so badly for so, so long that they are considered little more than one of the many gangster factions warring and preying upon people there.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    At the core of libertarianism is the rejection of agression against another individual. This includes the government, which is why in free social and economic matters the government should stay out of it. It can only coerce people to do things, even a thing like collecting taxes. All it should provide is the tools for society to thrive. Sound money, the courts, national defence, policing and perhaps infrastructure. They must allow freedom for people to make their own choices, as long as they don't violate the rights of others.
    The primary function of a limited government would be to protect the liberty of the individual.

    Theres other types of libertarians, as there are other political wings.
    I also call BS on this, the core of libertarianism is "He who pays the piper calls the tune", that's why they want the functions of the state to be a police state, its just Orwell's 1984 with the apparent absence of an official political ideology produced for mass consumption, its a case of believe what you like so long as you pimp your ass out to the highest bidder and do exactly what you're told.

    In the very best case scenario you are asking everyone to adopt a life like the Amish, because the sorts of limited government which are central to the rich mans paradise libertarianism envisages are totally incompatible with modern conditions, particularly mass consumption, mass production and the circulation of money in the economy whether by military or social spending.

  9. #99
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Deflect, dodge and slabber about the soviet union.
    .
    Of course, it's necessary a deflect since I criticize it.

    Is it a deflect too if I say that communism caused 50 millions of death?

    You are laugh.
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  10. #100
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Of course, it's necessary a deflect since I criticize it.

    Is it a deflect too if I say that communism caused 50 millions of death?

    You are laugh.
    I'm sorry what?

    OK if you cant structure a scentence I doubt your arguments are going to be rational.

    How many deaths has libertarianism caused? What has communism got to do with anything besides being the other in your black and white world?

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