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  1. #51
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I have a dream, not just for me, but for every person in all of humanity. That dream is that we all get paid a satisfactory amount for just being who we are--just doing what comes naturally to us.

    What do you think of this dream? How can we get closer to realizing this dream?

    I have not read the thread, i'll just answer your OP. Someone might have said this already...
    But in the future, things will probably be a LOT more automated with various droids doing all the menial work etc. Humans will essentially get to have a holiday for most of the time, perhaps just maintain the droids.
    Human numbers will of course have to be kept in check if it is to be sustainable at all without planetary migration, i.e spreading to more planets in other solar systems.

    If it is at all possible in the short term??? No, not without billions of dead people due to famine, disease, lack of transportation etc etc.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #52
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Sigh... the drawbacks of a managerial society.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    What if you got paid to pursue your intellectual interests because what you discovered did have benefit to others? I mean, essentially, your natural skill is a researcher of sorts. I'd say a lot of INP natural skills are viewed as useless because they aren't in the realm of business.... They also require being exceptional to make a living doing, which is hard to become when you're focused on making a living.

    Well my current job has alot of research in it so I guess I found my niche. The structure of a job does compensate for my tendency to figure something out and lose interest.

    I totally relate to what you say though, because I'll joke that I am naturally lazy. On the other hand, what I do for hobbies does produce something useful in a way; I gather & process information, often I apply these ideas to my real life, I create art, I keep my personal space organized & clean, etc. It's not a product that can be sold though. This is only a problem is you think the world has to revolve around money, that something needs to be produced that makes money to be valuable.

    Well I think you are correct in that alot of what I'm interested may not have IMMEDIATE or even quantifiable value. But sooner or later in my experience specialized knowledge becomes useful. More over a broad base of knowledge gives you a different lens to compare and contrast situations/scenarios that other people don't have. One of those things that bean counters have trouble getting their hands and brains around.

    Trying to falsify these motivations with stupid tactics like "employee of the month" crap doesn't work though. People aren't that dumb, not on an emotional level, because we're talking about true fulfillment & satisfaction.

    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  3. #53
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The important principle is to have a mechanism in place to reward producers for making goods that are in demand. I think Ygolo's dream system would remove that mechanism.
    Reward what producers? To be honest I think you're setting up a no doubt very long winded repaste about the invisible hand of the free market and evils of welfare. You know why free market economics is beginning to resemble a religion more and more?

  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This sounds like the current reality, IMO. Employers delusionally (almost in a narcissistic way) think employees should want to work for them just to work for them & they seek to remove those who aren't willing to be slaves because supposedly the job is such a privilege (barf). Almost no one wants this though. They only work because they have to, because they want/need the income. Of course, you're supposed to put on some facade during an interview & act like you don't care about the money. It's total BS and I can't believe anyone actually thinks this stuff is true.

    By "work", though, I mean having a job with expectations, often for someone else. People will work hard to meet their own interests, on their own time, for free even (something like what this video indicates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc). I don't think I'm explaining this perfectly, too many ideas at once, but people who seem happy at what they do often say they'd be doing it even if it wasn't their job (often self-employed people, notably), and this is what I think the OP is getting at. Trying to weed out people in interviews who don't fit this picture is a problem when no one would be working for you for free; that's more idealistic to me than the OP's suggestion. They'd only work for free for themselves, on their own terms, doing only what they want, in the way they want. Essentially, the OP wants people to be able to work for free, and not have to worry about their livelihood so they can reach full potential.
    To be honest I think that if no one worked other than because they wanted to, if there was no over riding need to in order to subsist, then the work done would be a vastly better sort.

    I've worked with demotivated people who are very unhappy in their work and would rather be anywhere else, doing anything else other than the present work they are tasked with and its awful to have to deal with that, probably the single worst thing about work per se.

    Do I think that without the compulsion to work to live no one would work? No, the availability of benefits already hasnt resulted in that, hasnt even resulted in a significant percentage of the population behaving like that.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Reward what producers?
    You think goods manufacture themselves? Do cows explode into prepackaged steaks when they mature?

    To be honest I think you're setting up a no doubt very long winded repaste about the invisible hand of the free market and evils of welfare. You know why free market economics is beginning to resemble a religion more and more?
    Nope. Blind idealism fail at both extemes.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The important principle is to have a mechanism in place to reward producers for making goods that are in demand. I think Ygolo's dream system would remove that mechanism.
    I am not advocating abolishing the market. Nor do I have a "dream system". There is no system I am advocating.

    I am simply dreaming of a future when all people find job satisfaction in plenty.

    At an extreme, I can imagine a future when:
    1) food, medicine, and anything can be synthesized from pure energy...perhaps nanite manufacturing.
    2) everyone has access to the energy and manufacturing capability.
    3) We have figured out terraforming, and can arbitrarily make rocky celestial bodies habitable.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  7. #57
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Protestant Work Ethic - Pie in the Sky or a Shit Sandwich?

    Work, they keep telling us, shall make us free.

    Why, these very words, "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work Shall Make Us Free) were posted over the very gates of hell.

    We are constantly told of the dignity of labour.

    The Bible tells us for disobeying God, Adam is forced to labour with the sweat of his brow and Eve to bring forth children in pain and travail.

    We are inculcated with the Protestant Work Ethic.

    We are told work in this life will prepare us for heaven in the next. Some call this pie in the sky, while others call it a shit sandwich.
    Last edited by Mole; 08-05-2011 at 02:04 AM.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Vizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I have a dream, not just for me, but for every person in all of humanity. That dream is that we all get paid a satisfactory amount for just being who we are--just doing what comes naturally to us.

    What do you think of this dream? How can we get closer to realizing this dream?
    Firstly, give every human on earth enough money and the freedom to study what they want in the first place in order to start pursuing their goal.

    What if they don't use that money properly? Some might say "Shopping for expensive shoes is what comes naturally to me."
    Others don't have a desire to learn and are quite content to drool in front of a TV 24/7.
    Going off on a morality tangent here, but what are you going to do with people who just get joy out of killing rare animals and nailing their catch-of-the-day on their wall? If you arrest them for illegal acitivites, they'd say, "But I'm being paid to do what whatever floats my boat". Where are all these lines drawn?

    The idea would be OK if everyone wanted to be something productive and legal...and even then, you'd have a myriad of problems.

    Are there any sci-fi books about such a dystopia?

    (Must admit, I have fantasized the idea of travelling everywhere as a student of the world with nothing but my study material...being respected and getting free accommodation and food for being a "scholar". Ha...)
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  9. #59

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    I think Victor is right, and we'd need people to be healthy, well socialized and well individualized for this to work.

    I believe, among people like that, people would actually want to contribute to society. They would simply be choosing how.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #60
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think Victor is right, and we'd need people to be healthy, well socialized and well individualized for this to work.

    I believe, among people like that, people would actually want to contribute to society. They would simply be choosing how.
    Yes, the paranoid personality from sacrificial child rearing, and the guilty personality in need of salvation from abusive child rearing, and the authoritarian personality in their rigid body, are not empathic and creative. However the empathic and creative personality from helping child rearing is self regulating, and so is able to use resources made available in an empathic and creative way, usually, but not always, benefiting everyone.

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