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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Frankly, I think you'll find fewer engineers who want to design kill-bots than those who want to design self-cleaning toilets.
    Who would fix these gadgets when they break down? Who would install them? Who would package and deliver them? Who would manufacture them? Who would dig up the raw materials from dangerous mines?

  2. #42
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    See to be honest I think that the transformation of the labour market would be only positive if yourself and others who felt exactly like you were removed from it, .
    You can see the disadvantage of such a system from my POV. Being "removed" has more than a whiff of the Stalinist jack boot to it.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm capable of working very, very hard - in fact I have a reputation for putting in brutal hours and being productive. Fortunatly I love what I do. On the other hand... I can think of other things I'd love to do even more: a life of leisure that revolved around pursuing what ever intellectual interest has caught my fancy sounds pretty good to me - if for no other reason I'd have no pesky management types in my life.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    You can see the disadvantage of such a system from my POV. Being "removed" has more than a whiff of the Stalinist jack boot to it.
    It is important to be aware of your own filters in order to clearly read a post and know what its saying rather than what you're attributing and associating when reading it yes.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm capable of working very, very hard - in fact I have a reputation for putting in brutal hours and being productive. Fortunatly I love what I do. On the other hand... I can think of other things I'd love to do even more: a life of leisure that revolved around pursuing what ever intellectual interest has caught my fancy sounds pretty good to me - if for no other reason I'd have no pesky management types in my life.
    I'm not questioning your productivity, I'm just saying that private enterprise has been trying for a long time to operate with what it considers its true labour expense but it hasnt been able to do so, downsizing while simultaneously chasing tax cuts is contradictory, those individuals are needed in the economy, if not as producers then consumers.

    If the social dividend or whatever you want to call it is paying people to be themselves then they will not have any pressure to provide employment and possibly can operate with the human resources overheads they want to.

    What I was saying is that it makes good business sense for the social dividend to operate, even if society's norms make it appear like a subsidy for laziness.

  4. #44
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Its possible I don't entirely understand the point you are making (my fault not yours).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It is important to be aware of your own filters in order to clearly read a post and know what its saying rather than what you're attributing and associating when reading it yes.

    [I]Upon my honor guilty my lord! Yep. I did filter your post. But I do think there are enough people like me who, left to their own devices, would indulge their taste for intellectual dilettantism (the collection of knowledge for its own sake without much regard for application) to wonder how such a system could avoid wasting the talents and energy of people like that.[/I]

    I'm not questioning your productivity, I'm just saying that private enterprise has been trying for a long time to operate with what it considers its true labour expense but it hasnt been able to do so, downsizing while simultaneously chasing tax cuts is contradictory, those individuals are needed in the economy, if not as producers then consumers.

    If the social dividend or whatever you want to call it is paying people to be themselves then they will not have any pressure to provide employment and possibly can operate with the human resources overheads they want to.

    What I was saying is that it makes good business sense for the social dividend to operate, even if society's norms make it appear like a subsidy for laziness.

    From my POV the western and particularly American "Cult of Management" has resulted in an over reliance on data that can be explicitly and simply quantified AND simultaneously has a short term time horizon (can you present it on 10 or less PPT slides?). We see plenty of examples of what makes sense short term being a disaster long term (the mortgage crisis comes to mind).

    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, you see, the converse is true, without the assurity of a consumer base the companies which produce will not produce or if they do it could be in the manner of gluts and shortages, capitalism needs consumers as much as it does producers, someways mroe so.
    The important principle is to have a mechanism in place to reward producers for making goods that are in demand. I think Ygolo's dream system would remove that mechanism.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Who would fix these gadgets when they break down? Who would install them? Who would package and deliver them? Who would manufacture them? Who would dig up the raw materials from dangerous mines?
    There are handy people around who love fixing almost anything, and plenty of people who enjoy physical labor. Manufacturing and packaging is done mostly by machine anyways.

    Frankly, I think you'd be amased how large a percentage of people actually like being physical, and doing manual labor. Many people enjoy doing "real work." The problem is that these jobs don't usually pay as well as "white collar" jobs...unless they run the businesses themselves.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    That's the way I am too and I suspect alot of people are like that. This is why I'm skeptical the idea would actually work as great as it sounds.

    I have a feeling that if people just did what they wanted when they wanted, productivity would suffer. People have to sometimes do what they don't want to do.

    What would work is for people to develop a good self-awareness of their strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes, etc. so they can best be matched to the most suitable careers. No career is perfect and people may not always get to do or act how they want all the time but in a well-matched career, you could probably come pretty close to ideal.
    I suppose like any ideal, achieving it perefectly may be a pipe dream, but what you describe near the end is close enough, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    You can see the disadvantage of such a system from my POV. Being "removed" has more than a whiff of the Stalinist jack boot to it.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm capable of working very, very hard - in fact I have a reputation for putting in brutal hours and being productive. Fortunatly I love what I do. On the other hand... I can think of other things I'd love to do even more: a life of leisure that revolved around pursuing what ever intellectual interest has caught my fancy sounds pretty good to me - if for no other reason I'd have no pesky management types in my life.
    If you love what you do, and it pays enough for you to live on, I think that is good enough. I am thinking only that you don't have to struggle, day-in, day-out, just to make ends-meet.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #48
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I suppose like any ideal, achieving it perefectly may be a pipe dream, but what you describe near the end is close enough, I think.



    If you love what you do, and it pays enough for you to live on, I think that is good enough. I am thinking only that you don't have to struggle, day-in, day-out, just to make ends-meet.
    Oh I'm not bitching by any means. I have had worse, far worse, jobs in my life. My work is intellectually challenging, rarely boring and I think I'm doing the kind of work that does some actual good (however little that might be) and the pay is more than adequate by any reasonable standard. And since I’m not money driven (I mean I like it but I don’t make a fetish of having more) it’s more than adequate to meet my needs with enough left over for me to secure my retirement.

    On the other hand, as I observed above, if somebody wants to support me in the style to which I’ve become accustomed while I do exactlyh what I want on any given day… I’m up for it!
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Who would fix these gadgets when they break down? Who would install them? Who would package and deliver them? Who would manufacture them? Who would dig up the raw materials from dangerous mines?
    We already have robots making cars and exploring the solar system. And every day our computing power increases.

  10. #50
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    You can see the disadvantage of such a system from my POV. Being "removed" has more than a whiff of the Stalinist jack boot to it.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm capable of working very, very hard - in fact I have a reputation for putting in brutal hours and being productive. Fortunatly I love what I do. On the other hand... I can think of other things I'd love to do even more: a life of leisure that revolved around pursuing what ever intellectual interest has caught my fancy sounds pretty good to me - if for no other reason I'd have no pesky management types in my life.
    What if you got paid to pursue your intellectual interests because what you discovered did have benefit to others? I mean, essentially, your natural skill is a researcher of sorts. I'd say a lot of INP natural skills are viewed as useless because they aren't in the realm of business.... They also require being exceptional to make a living doing, which is hard to become when you're focused on making a living.

    I totally relate to what you say though, because I'll joke that I am naturally lazy. On the other hand, what I do for hobbies does produce something useful in a way; I gather & process information, often I apply these ideas to my real life, I create art, I keep my personal space organized & clean, etc. It's not a product that can be sold though. This is only a problem is you think the world has to revolve around money, that something needs to be produced that makes money to be valuable.

    This is why the work of the housewife is devalued also; she is not paid for it, and yet she has motivation to do it still. It's because she WANTS to, even if not always pleasant or part of a larger dream. Somewhere in this rambling I am saying that people will do things they don't want to do when they have a greater motivation than it being their "job" to earn money.

    Trying to falsify these motivations with stupid tactics like "employee of the month" crap doesn't work though. People aren't that dumb, not on an emotional level, because we're talking about true fulfillment & satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    See to be honest I think that the transformation of the labour market would be only positive if yourself and others who felt exactly like you were removed from it, interviewing applicants who were competing because they like the job or want the work would be simplier, easier and probably wouldnt have to be done as often. That's only a simple example which I can think of.
    This sounds like the current reality, IMO. Employers delusionally (almost in a narcissistic way) think employees should want to work for them just to work for them & they seek to remove those who aren't willing to be slaves because supposedly the job is such a privilege (barf). Almost no one wants this though. They only work because they have to, because they want/need the income. Of course, you're supposed to put on some facade during an interview & act like you don't care about the money. It's total BS and I can't believe anyone actually thinks this stuff is true.

    By "work", though, I mean having a job with expectations, often for someone else. People will work hard to meet their own interests, on their own time, for free even (something like what this video indicates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc). I don't think I'm explaining this perfectly, too many ideas at once, but people who seem happy at what they do often say they'd be doing it even if it wasn't their job (often self-employed people, notably), and this is what I think the OP is getting at. Trying to weed out people in interviews who don't fit this picture is a problem when no one would be working for you for free; that's more idealistic to me than the OP's suggestion. They'd only work for free for themselves, on their own terms, doing only what they want, in the way they want. Essentially, the OP wants people to be able to work for free, and not have to worry about their livelihood so they can reach full potential.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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